Aug 19, 2025 Committee of the Whole

WOULD YOU LIKE MY NEW GAVEL? THIS WAS PROVIDED BY PUBLIC WORKS. THANK YOU. PUBLIC WORKS.

[CALL TO ORDER]

[00:00:10]

[a. Discussion of Proposed Amendments to Replace Title 6, Chapter 1D – Cost Recovery for Hazardous Materials Emergencies with New Title 3, Chapter 10]

ANOTHER INCIDENT THAT WE HAD FAIRLY RECENTLY, FORTUNATELY, IT WAS IN. OH, OH, SORRY. I WAS TELLING SCOTT, THERE'S TWO MORE CHAIRS. WE HAD AN INCIDENT WITH UEFA WHERE THERE WAS A FIRE AND IT WAS IN A PARAFFIN WAX PLANT AND A LOT OF HOSES WERE DAMAGED, A LOT OF TURNOUTS WERE DAMAGED, AND UEFA WAS ABLE TO. OR WAS IT SANDY? SANDY? YEAH, I CORRECTED MYSELF THERE. SANDY WAS ABLE TO COST RECOVER A LOT OF THAT AND REPLACE IT FOR US AND HELP US. AND WE JUST LIKE TO BE ABLE TO, TO DO THAT, SHOULD WE HAVE. NOW, OBVIOUSLY WE DON'T WANT TO. YOU KNOW, AS I TALKED TO CORBIN ABOUT IT, WE DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, PUT AN EXTRA COST ON THE CITIZENS. OUR OUR INTENTION IS NOT TO, YOU KNOW, TRY TO CHARGE FOR EVERY SERVICE THAT WE PROVIDE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

BUT MUCH LIKE IN THE EMS FIELD WHERE WE USE A LOT OF SUPPLIES, WE'D LIKE TO RECOVER SOME OF THOSE COSTS. AND IN TALKING TO CORBIN, HE WANTED TO TRY TO HAVE SOME LANGUAGE THAT WOULD MAKE IT SO THAT IN THE EVENT OF A MAJOR EMERGENCY, SOME OTHER DEPARTMENTS IN THE CITY COULD POSSIBLY DO THE SAME THING IF NECESSARY. SO ANY QUESTIONS? I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT IT BRIEFLY, KIND OF AS A SIDEBAR A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO AND SEEMED LIKE MOST OF YOU WANTED TO EXPLORE THAT, BUT I'LL MEET ALL COSTS INCURRED. DOES THAT INCLUDE STAFF OVERTIME OVERHEAD OR JUST DIRECT OUT OF POCKET? IT COULD. TYPICALLY IT WOULD BE MORE DIRECT OUT OF POCKET. BUT I'M THINKING IN MY CAREER WE HAD A WE DID HAVE A HAZMAT SITUATION ONE TIME THAT I WENT ON THAT WAS A METH LAB AND THERE WAS A LOT THAT PLAYED INTO IT. BUT WE IT WAS VERY RESOURCE INTENSIVE. WE HAD CREWS ON THE SCENE FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME. AND IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT, WHEN, WHEN A PARTICULARLY WHEN IT WAS BASED ON MAYBE NOT THE NEGLIGENCE BUT THE INATTENTION OF THE BUSINESS OWNER AT THE TIME. SO IF THE RESPONSIBLE PARTY REFUSES TO PAY, WHAT ARE THE RESOURCES ON GETTING THAT RECOVERED? THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. WE LIKE I SAID, WE WOULD TYPICALLY TRY TO GO THROUGH AN INSURANCE COMPANY. I WOULDN'T WANT TO PUT THAT BURDEN NECESSARILY. I WE'D LEAVE IT OPEN, BUT I WOULDN'T WANT TO PUT THAT BURDEN ON A CITIZEN SPECIFICALLY. I KNOW THAT WOULD BE VERY HARD WORD. WE COULD USE ANY LEGAL MEANS NECESSARY TO COLLECT THE MONEY IF WE CHOSE TO. YEAH. NOW, IS THIS APPLY FOR THE FUTURE OR IS IT APPLIED INSTANCE OCCURRING BEFORE THE ADOPTION? IS THERE LIKE A NO, IT WOULD BE NO. THERE'S NOTHING LIKE PENDING RIGHT NOW. WE'RE TRYING TO I WANTED TO MAKE SURE. NO, NO JUST JUST IN THE FUTURE, WE'D LIKE TO AT LEAST BE ABLE TO DO THAT. IS THERE MAYBE A POTENTIAL OF, OF HAVING LIKE AN ANNUAL REPORT WITH THIS, OF SEEING HOW, YOU KNOW, THE ANNUAL REPORT OF RECOVERED COSTS TO SHOW SOME ACCOUNTABILITY? YEAH, OKAY. WE'LL DO THAT. I THINK THAT'S ALL THE QUESTIONS FOR ME. THIS WOULD BE JUST THIS WOULD BE BECAUSE IT SAYS CITY. THIS COULD BE THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AS WELL, COULD BE PUBLIC WORKS. IT COULD BE PARKS. YOU KNOW, DEPENDING ON. SO I THINK THE WORDING ALLOWS US A LOT OF

[00:05:07]

I'D RATHER SAY SEE ANY BECAUSE ANY WOULD MEAN THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO COLLECT THEM ALL. I MEAN, BECAUSE ALL IMPLIES THAT IF THE FIREFIGHTERS ROLLED OUT, WE WOULD COLLECT ALL THE COSTS WHERE YOU MAY BE ONLY TRYING TO GET THE ABSORBENT. SO WE NEED TO CHANGE A COUPLE OF WORDS. AND THE ONE PARAGRAPH. IN THREE, THE 1 IN 3, DASH TEN, DASH THREE, ONE SENTENCE. THAT'S THREE LINES LONG. THREE AND A HALF LINES LONG MAY BE A LITTLE WORDY, SO I'LL GET WITH YOU. THERE'S A COUPLE OF INCONGRUENCIES WITH THE WAY WE'RE CITING CODE, SO I'LL GET WITH YOU AND WE'LL FIGURE THOSE OUT BEFORE WE GET IT TO THE COUNCIL. BEFORE WE GET IT TO THE PUBLIC MEETING. SO KELVIN ACTUALLY BROUGHT UP WHAT I WAS WONDERING ABOUT IS THAT THE FIRE ISSUE. RIGHT. THE PREVIOUS ONE WAS ONLY ABOUT HAZMAT. THIS IS A LITTLE MORE BROAD. AND WOULD IT INCLUDE, SAY, A NEGLIGENT FIREWORK DISCHARGE ON THE 4TH OF JULY THAT WE CAN CHARGE? POTENTIALLY IT COULD. I WOULDN'T WANT TO USE IT IN A PUNITIVE MANNER. I MOSTLY OUR INTENT IS JUST TO RECOVER COSTS, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THIS FIRE WE HAD THIS WEEK, IF WE HAD BURNED UP SOME HOSE OR SOMEBODY TURNOUTS GOT DAMAGED RATHER THAN US FOOTING THE BILL AT THAT REPLACEMENT, WE'D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO REACH OUT TO THE INSURANCE COMPANY AND GO THROUGH THEM TO HAVE THEM REPLACE TYPE OF THING. BUT I MEAN, POTENTIALLY IT COULD BE, BUT THAT THAT WOULD BE KIND OF OUTSIDE OUR REALM OF WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO. BUT I WOULD I WOULD LIKE TO SEE NOT NOT NECESSARILY AS A PUNITIVE THING, BUT AS A DETERRENT. RIGHT. THAT'S THAT'S WHY YOU PUT PUNITIVE THINGS IN CODE IS IT'S A DETERRENT. SO LET PEOPLE BE A LITTLE SMARTER WHEN IT COMES TO FIREWORKS. THAT'S THAT'S THE FIRST TIME YOU DO IT. COST YOU A DUMPSTER FIRE, COST YOU $500.

SO, CHIEF, WHO WHO MAKES THIS DETERMINATION? IS IT THE POLICE CHIEF? THE FIRE CHIEF? AS FAR AS WHEN WE'RE GOING TO. WHEN WE'RE GOING TO SEEK COMPENSATION AND WHEN WE'RE NOT, THERE ARE A COUPLE THAT DETERMINES YET TO BE DETERMINED. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT OPTIONS. WE HAVEN'T DECIDED ON ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR YET. THERE ARE COMPANIES THAT WILL DO IT. THEY WILL DO THE SUBROGATION FOR YOU WITH THE INSURANCE COMPANY AND THEN GIVE YOU THE MONEY FOR A PORTION OR WHATEVER. THERE'S WAYS WE COULD DO IT OURSELVES TO ACTUALLY, MY QUESTION WAS CLEAR.

OKAY. NOT NECESSARILY WHO DOES THE WORK ITSELF? BESIDES WHO DETERMINES THAT WE'RE GOING TO SUBMIT A CLAIM? I THINK IT WOULD BE LIKE THE COMMAND STAFF OR THE DEPARTMENT HEAD OF EACH OF THE AGENCIES. IF SOMETHING HAPPENED LIKE THAT, I PROBABLY, I WOULD ASSUME WITH CORBIN'S APPROVAL AND UNDERSTANDING. BUT YEAH, IT WOULDN'T BE IT WOULDN'T BE LIKE OUR FRONTLINE FIREFIGHTERS MAKING THE DECISION THAT, OH, I NEED A NEW SET OF TURNOUTS. AND THESE ONES KIND OF GOT BURNED ON THIS FIRE. I'M GOING TO GET SOME NEW ONES. BUT SEE, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AND I THINK WE CAN LEAVE THIS UP TO THE MAYOR. I HOPE HE'S BEHIND ME. YES, WE CAN LEAVE THIS UP TO THANKS THAT WHAT WE MAY WANT TO DO FROM AN EXECUTIVE SIDE WOULD BE TO ESTABLISH MAYBE SOME SORT OF THAT INCLUDES RISK MANAGEMENT AND THE INSURANCE TYPE THINGS. CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE AND THE DEPARTMENT HEAD THAT IF YOU HAVE A HAVE A CRITICAL INCIDENT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THEN THEN IT AUTOMATICALLY GENERATES THE THIS QUICK REVIEW THAT YOU SAY, OKAY, WE HAD THIS INCIDENT.

HERE'S WHAT WAS IS THERE ANYTHING. AND YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF A MAYOR DEPARTMENT HEAD, RISK MANAGEMENT INSURANCE TYPE TYPE THING. SO BUT THAT'S NOT IN THE ORDINANCE. BUT I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE WAY THAT I THINK WOULD BE ABLE TO GO. SO WE ALREADY HAVE KIND OF SET UP LIKE THAT RIGHT NOW. FOR EXAMPLE, ON 13 WEST WE CANYONS HIT THAT SEWER LINE CAUSED BACKUPS. WE

[00:10:05]

THIS IS TOTALLY SEPARATE FROM THAT. THIS ISN'T FIGHTING, BUT YOU STILL RECOVER THE COST IF WE WANT IT, RIGHT? THE FINE IS THE ILLEGAL LEGALITY. THE COST RECOVERY IS THE ACTUAL COST TO COVER THE ILLEGALITY. AND WHEN SOMEONE BACKS OUT AND HITS A LIGHT POLE, WE PUT THE POLE BACK UP. WE TRY TO HIT THE LIGHT POLE. YEAH, AND SAME TYPE OF THING. SAME THING. YEAH. AND THIS WILL WORK JUST THE SAME AS THAT. WE JUST INCLUDE THAT WITH EVERYTHING ELSE WE DO. ARE THERE ANY FURTHER. YES. SO ON YOUR TIME HERE IN WEST JORDAN AND MAYBE EVEN BACK TO SANDY AS WELL, HAVE YOU SEEN A LOT OF INSTANCES WHERE THE CITY HAS HAD TO DO THIS, HAD TO RECOVER COSTS LIKE THIS? I, THE ONE THAT JUMPS OUT AT ME RIGHT OFF THE BAT IS LIKE I MENTIONED, IT'S NOT A HUGE COST, BUT ABSORBENT. WE USE ABSORBENT PROBABLY MULTIPLE TIMES A WEEK ON TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS. YOU KNOW, THE CAR INSURANCE COVERS THAT, RIGHT? SO THAT THAT WOULD BE LIKE PROBABLY THE ONE OF THE BIGGER ONES. YEAH. I JUST DOESN'T SEEM LIKE YOU'RE HAVING TO RECOVER COSTS A LOT. NOT TOO OFTEN. AND A LOT OF TIMES WE'VE JUST WE'VE JUST WHEN THAT'S HAPPENED, IF SOMEBODY TURNOUTS HAVE BEEN DAMAGED OR WHATEVER, WE'VE JUST JUST PAID FOR THAT. THIS WILL ALLOW US TO RECOVER COSTS FOR INSURANCE. OKAY. PERFECT. THANK YOU. OKAY. ARE THERE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS? ARE WE ALL OKAY? IF YOU'RE NOT OKAY, LET ME VOICE IT THIS WAY. IF YOU'RE NOT OKAY WITH THIS GOING THROUGH AND WITH KELVIN, I'M SPEAKING WITH CHASE ON A COUPLE OF EDITING THINGS. PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND. OKAY. IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'VE GOT SEVEN OUT OF SEVEN THAT ARE OKAY. THANK YOU.

THANK YOU. AND I JUST WANT WE'VE GOT SEVERAL VISITORS THAT AREN'T GENERALLY WITH US. SO I JUST WANT TO LET YOU KNOW THAT THIS IS OUR WORK MEETING. SO THERE ISN'T A TIME WHEN THE PUBLIC CAN COMMENT. BUT YOU'RE WELCOME HERE. WE'RE HAPPY TO HAVE YOU AND YOU CAN LEARN A LOT. WELCOME TO TALK TO EACH ONE OF US WHEN IT'S OVER. YES. AND YOU CAN ALSO EMAIL US AT COUNCIL COMMENTS AT WEST JORDAN UTAH GOV. YES YES. NEXT UP IS A DISCUSSION ON LANDSCAPE WATER USE RATES. AND

[b. Discussion on Landscape Water Use Rates]

THEIR CHURCHES, THEIR SCHOOLS, THEIR LARGE HOA'S. AND USUALLY THOSE ARE THE ONES, THE ONES

[00:15:06]

AND MAYBE THE COMMERCIAL OR INDUSTRIAL USERS AS A WHOLE. THERE'S MORE USERS. SO YEAH, YEAH. WHEN YOU SELL ELECTRICITY, THE PRICE PER WATT GOES DOWN. WHEN YOU DEDUCT, WHEN YOU TAKE A TOTAL COST FOR THE METER AND THEN YOU CHARGE PER GALLON, THE MORE GALLONS YOU USE, THE PRICE PER GALLON GOES DOWN BECAUSE YOU JUST HAVE THE ONE METER. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE WHAT'S THE SAME WITH ELECTRICITY? DO YOU HAVE ONE SERVICE? DO YOU USE A WHOLE BUNCH OF WHAT'S THE PRICE PER WATT GOES DOWN BECAUSE YOUR INITIAL BASE COST IS FIXED. AND SO THE MORE YOU USE THE PRICE GOES DOWN. FOR A MINUTE I THOUGHT YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL ME I PAID FOR GALLONS. FOR

[00:20:05]

RIGHT. AGAIN, WITH JORDAN LANDING BEING PROBABLY THE EXCEPTION BECAUSE THEY'RE SO LARGE. WALMART I THINK THE EXCEPTION OR THEIR EXCEPTIONAL MAYBE BOTH. WELL, I THINK WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, RESIDENTS HAVE BORNE THE CONSERVATION BURDEN.

THERE'S BEEN EDUCATION CAMPAIGNS, TIERED PRICING RATE INCREASES THAT HAVE LARGELY TARGETED THE HOMEOWNERS, WHERE BUSINESSES WHO HAVE A LARGER TURF AND A HIGHER DISCRETIONARY USE HAVE LOWER RATES. SO FOR ME, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE THAT RESIDENTS WATERING A FRONT YARD PAY MORE PER GALLON THAN YOUR HOA WATERING ACRES OF GRASS. SO EQUITY AND FAIRNESS TO ME PLAYS IN HERE, AND I THINK LARGE LANDSCAPE USERS RESPOND TO HIGHER COST BY INVESTING IN WATER WISE LANDSCAPING OR UPGRADING THEIR TECHNOLOGY AND RESIDENTS. AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY'RE BASICALLY SUBSIDIZING THESE LARGE USERS, AND IT NEEDS TO COME TO FAIRNESS. THEY SHOULD NOT. IF THEY'RE USING MORE WATER, THEY SHOULD NOT BE PAYING LESS. I AGREE. SO I WAS LED TO BELIEVE THAT IF WE WERE TO RAISE THE RATES FOR THESE LANDSCAPING RATES TO MATCH RESIDENTIAL RATES, THAT THE LANDSCAPING USERS WOULD THEN BE SUBSIDIZING RESIDENTIAL USERS. AND I SEE A HEAD NODDING BACK HERE. OH, SO SORRY I WASN'T GOING TO BE IN THIS DISCUSSION, BUT I SEE. SO WHEN WE DID THE STUDY IN 2020, WHICH WE'RE GOING TO UPDATE THIS YEAR FOR YOU, IF YOU REMEMBER, WHEN WE DID THE STUDY, WE DID THE STUDY BASED ON AMOUNT OF WATER, AND THEN WE SET THE TIERS TO COME UP WITH EQUALITY. SO WE DID GO THROUGH AN EQUALITY MEASURE METHOD. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE RATES ARE THE SAME. WHAT IT MEANS IS, IS THAT THE FIRST FEW THOUSAND GALLONS ARE ONLY RECOVERING THIS MUCH WATER. SO OVERALL THE REVENUE FROM LANDSCAPE METERS IS EQUAL TO RESIDENTIAL METERS AND COMMERCIAL METERS. RIGHT NOW, COMMERCIAL USERS, RESIDENTIAL USERS AND LANDSCAPE METERS. THE REVENUE PER GALLON OF WATER SOLD IS THE SAME. IT IS JUST THE WAY THAT THEY USE IT BECAUSE OF THE TIERED RATES, RIGHT? MOST OF THE LANDSCAPE USERS ARE IN THE HIGHER TIERED RATES. THEY'RE PAYING MORE. MOST OF THE RESIDENTIALS ARE IN THE LOWER TIER RATES. SO IF YOU CAN'T DO A DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR WHEN YOU'RE USING A TIERED RATE SYSTEM, IT DOESN'T WORK. IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR TRUE EQUALITY, LIKE THE SAME DOLLAR FOR THE SAME DROP OF WATER. I NEED TO SEE A CHART. BUT THOSE ARE THE BUT. BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, YEAH. SO I'M GOING TO MAKE JORDAN LANDING AND I'M GOING TO MAKE JORDAN SCHOOL DISTRICT MAN I'LL MAKE GRANITE SCHOOL DISTRICT MAD AND A COUPLE OTHER BUSINESSES MAD. THE PROBLEM IS, IS THAT THERE'S NO INCENTIVE FOR JORDAN SCHOOL DISTRICT TO CONSERVE WATER.

YEAH. WE SAW WE, WE SAW A WEEK OR SO AGO AT THE JORDAN VALLEY WATER CONSERVANCY DISTRICT PUBLIC HEARING. MOST OF THE PEOPLE SAID, I DON'T WANT A PROPERTY TAX INCREASE. I WANT TO SEE THE RATES GO UP SO THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY PAYING THE TRUE COST OF WATER AND NOT BEING SUBSIDIZED BY PROPERTY TAX. THAT WAS THAT WAS A CONSISTENT THEME. SO WHAT YOU'RE WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS, IS THAT YOU DRIVE PAST. I'LL, I'LL USE A PERFECT EXAMPLE. YOU DRIVE PAST COLUMBIA ELEMENTARY AND THE SPRINKLERS, THE WATER IN THE STREET AT 7800 SOUTH. THEY'RE JUST EAST OF MOUNTAIN VIEW. YOU DRIVE, YOU DRIVE, YOU DRIVE THROUGH JORDAN LANDING. AND THERE ARE PLACES THE SPRINKLERS AREN'T WATERING. RIGHT? YOU DRIVE THROUGH THESE COMMERCIAL AREAS AND THE SPRINKLERS ARE NOT. DESIGNED. THEY'RE THEY'RE NOT THEY'RE THEY'RE NOT CONSERVING WATER. SO THE QUESTION IS, AND IT MAY NOT BE THE LANDSCAPE RATE, BUT THAT'S THE ONLY WAY WE MAY ADDRESS IT. BUT THE QUESTION IS HOW DO WE SHIFT TO GET THE LARGE WATER USERS TO CONSERVE WATER THAT THE AVERAGE RESIDENTIAL USER? I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I'VE, I'VE, I'VE PULLED OUT HOW MANY SQUARE FEET OF GRASS IN MY FRONT YARD. MY WIFE TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY, SHE GOES, I THINK I WANT A SIDEWALK OR I WANT EVERYBODY WALKS THROUGH THE GRASS ANYWAY. SO I THINK WE OUGHT TO TAKE THIS PATH AND MAKE THAT A SIDEWALK. AND THEN IF WE MAKE THAT A SIDEWALK, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING

[00:25:03]

SO. I FEEL LIKE THIS MOVE IS MEANT TO PUNISH BIG WATER USERS WHO ARE NOT MOVING QUICK ENOUGH AS WE WOULD LIKE TO, TO CONSERVE WATER. I DON'T WANT I MEAN, WE'VE HAD DISCUSSIONS ABOUT BEING BUSINESS FRIENDLY RECENTLY REGARDING THE MASSAGE BUSINESSES. THIS IS NOT BUSINESS FRIENDLY TO JACK UP RATES. AND THEN WHO DOES JORDAN LANDING PASS THOSE RATES ONTO THEIR RENTERS. AND THEN THE RENTERS START SAYING, WELL, GEE, MAYBE TAYLORSVILLE LOOKS BETTER. MAYBE SOUTH JORDAN LOOKS BETTER. PLACE TO RENT. WE GOTTA BE CAREFUL. AND THEN AND THEN HOAS ARE JUST GOING TO PASS IT ON TO THEIR RESIDENTS AND THEY'LL BLAME US. THEY'LL BLAME THE CITY COUNCIL FOR THAT RATE RAISE. SO THEN THE ULTIMATE QUESTION WOULD BE BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT HOAS, THAT WATER EVERY DANG DAY, AND SOME OF THESE OTHER THINGS, AND IT'LL GO BACK TO THE TO THE REVENUE HOA. ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT ARE THERE OTHER HOSE THAT YOU HAVE COMPLAINTS WHERE EVERYONE'S WATERING? I MEAN, PEOPLE HAVE THEIR OWN LAWN. THEY TURN THEIR SPRINKLERS ON AND OFF. YEAH, I TURN MY SPRINKLERS ON AND OFF, BUT I DON'T GET WATER, BILL. I GET HOA. HOA DOESN'T CARE. THEY JUST WATER. AND WE DON'T HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER IT. BUT THEY SHOULD BE HOA NEED TO LEAD BY EXAMPLE. THE COST ISN'T GOING TO MAKE HOA STOP WATERING THEIR LAWNS, BUT IT'S IT WILL THOUGH IT WILL. ARE YOU SURE? OTHERWISE I HAVE TO RAISE RATES AND THEN PEOPLE GET MAD AND HOA BOARD IS

[00:30:02]

AND MAYBE THE LANDSCAPES ARE ACTUALLY USING MORE WATER THAN THE RESIDENTIAL ON PER CAPITA OR THOSE KIND OF THINGS. SO WE MAY NEED TO WE MAY NEED TO LOOK AT THAT. I'M ACTUALLY OKAY. AND THE OTHER QUESTION WOULD BE HOW DO WE EITHER ENCOURAGE OR ENFORCE ONE OF THE TWO WATER CONSERVATION? WELL, THEY NEED TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. THEY HAVE TO BE PART OF THE CONSERVATION GOALS, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T CONTINUE TO SOLELY REST ON HOMEOWNERS. AND THAT'S WHY IT NEEDS TO. WE NEED TO WAIT FOR SPECIALISTS, CONSERVATION SPECIALIST TO STEP IN. LET'S, LET'S LET'S DO READY. AIM. FIRE. LET'S TALK TO A CONSERVATIONIST. LET'S HAVE A CONSERVATIONIST BUILD A PLAN FOR CONSERVATION, WORK WITH BUSINESSES, COME UP WITH A GOOD SOLUTION, AND THEN WE CAN IMPLEMENT A POLICY FROM THERE. AND I'M OKAY DELAYING THIS BECAUSE THE WATER RATES DON'T TAKE EFFECT UNTIL OCTOBER. AND BY THE TIME OCTOBER COMES, LANDSCAPE WATER IS DONE. AND SO WE'VE GOT UNTIL NEXT APRIL TO DEAL WITH IT. I DON'T WANT TO KICK THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD, BUT I THINK YOU MAY BE RIGHT. IS THAT WHAT WE WHAT WE REALLY PROBABLY OUGHT TO DO IS BRING THE WATER CONSERVATION PERSON ON BOARD AND WORK WITH THE BUSINESSES AND FIGURE OUT WHAT BUSINESSES ARE WILLING TO DO WITH CONSERVATION AND HOW, AND BRING BACK A PLAN TO THE COUNCIL TO RAISE RATES, INCREASE FINES. AND YOU'RE RIGHT. I MEAN, I DROVE DOWN 7800 SOUTH THE OTHER DAY AND SAW US SPRINKLER OVER AT. AND THERE WERE A COUPLE OF GUYS WORKING AROUND IT. SO I'M I'M ASSUMING THERE'S A REASON WHY THE SPRINKLERS WERE ON AT 2:00 IN THE AFTERNOON WHEN IT WAS 97 DEGREES OUTSIDE. I'M. BUT THAT'S A BIG ASSUMPTION. BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. A LOT OF THE COMPLAINTS ARE BASED ON THE CITY. AND SO, COREY, STAFF NEEDS TO ADD REAL QUICKLY THAT I'M A I'M A WAIT AS WELL. WE'RE SEVEN PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW ALL THE WATER INFORMATION. WE'RE GOING TO HIRE A SPECIALIST. WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO GET THAT IN. LET'S GET THAT SET. IT'S A DECISION OF ARE WE TRYING TO RAISE MONEY OR ARE WE TRYING TO GET CONSERVATION. THOSE ARE THE THINGS WE NEED TO PUT IN. SO THAT'S WHY I'M A WAIT OKAY. DO I DO I HAVE FOUR OR MORE THAT ARE WILLING TO WAIT? OKAY I DO. SO UPDATE OUR STUDY AND HAVE IT TO YOU BY THE END OF DECEMBER IF THAT'S OKAY. IT TAKES US A WHILE TO GET ALL OF THE DATA AND GO THROUGH THE STUFF. YOU KNOW WHAT, IF IT'S NOT COMING TILL THE END OF DECEMBER, IT MAY AS WELL WAIT TILL JANUARY. DO YOU HAVE A WAY? I MEAN, I'VE HEARD WE CAN DO IT. I'VE HEARD FOUR DIFFERENT ENTITIES HERE FOR HOMES, CHURCHES, SCHOOLS AND BUSINESSES. DO WE HAVE A WAY TO SEE WHICH ONE OF THOSE ARE WASTING WATER? WELL, WHAT IS WASTE, RIGHT. I MEAN, THE LIBRARY HAS HOW MUCH, YOU KNOW, GRASS AROUND IT, I. RIGHT. IS THAT WASTE OR NOT WASTE I HEARTLAND ELEMENTARY WHICH IS BY MY HOUSE AND THEY HAVE A HUGE LAWN THEY HAVE TO WATER. THAT WOULD BE I THINK THAT WATER CONSERVATION SPECIALIST COULD BE. I DON'T SEE THEM WASTING. I MEAN, YEAH, THERE ARE SOME SPRINKLERS THAT WILL HIT THE STREETS ONCE IN A WHILE, BUT I DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY'RE WASTING.

AND I WANT TO SEE GREEN GRASS INSTEAD OF YELLOW BROWN GRASS. SO. OKAY, WELL, IT LOOKS LIKE WE'RE GOING TO WASTE. THANK YOU, MISS STECK. BIG WATER USERS THAT ARE IN THE ROOM. MAYBE YOU CAN GET US SOME FEEDBACK AS WELL. THAT WOULD BE GREAT. THANK YOU. BECAUSE WE WILL BE BRINGING THIS BACK PROBABLY IN JANUARY, MR. ANDERSON. I'VE GOT A PARK, SO. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. WE ARE GOING TO MOVE ON. THANK YOU. THANK YOU, MISS STECK. NEXT TIME, JUST COME. YOUR NAME IS RIGHT THERE IN GREEN. I KNOW, SO SORRY. OKAY. THE NEXT IS A DISCUSSION ON PROPOSED

[c. Discussion on Proposed Amendments to Titles 13 and 4 Regarding Zoning and Business and License Regulations for Massage Establishments]

SO THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THIS UP TODAY. I'VE GOT JUST A LITTLE POWERPOINT TO HELP KIND OF GUIDE

[00:35:04]

I, I WITHDRAW MY OBJECTION. SO THE STATE OF UTAH HAS HAS MADE SOME RECENT CHANGES. I THINK THEY'RE EXTENSIVE. AND I DON'T KNOW IF ANYBODY EVEN WANTED TO OR LOOK OVER HOUSE BILL 278 BUT IT IS IT IS PRETTY EXTENSIVE. THERE'S NEW DEFINITIONS, THERE'S REVISED LICENSING REQUIREMENTS FOR PRACTITIONERS, NEW CATEGORIES, REGISTRATION REQUIREMENTS NOW FOR EVEN ESTABLISHMENTS. AND THESE CHANGES WERE SPURRED ON FROM THE AG'S OFFICE AND THE LEGISLATURE DEALING WITH HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND SEX CRIMES. WE HAVE SEEN SOME OF THESE SAME ISSUES HERE IN IN WEST JORDAN. THE COUNCIL HAS PREVIOUSLY ASKED THAT WE TRY TO UPDATE OUR CITY CODE TO MATCH WHAT WHAT THE STATE HAS DONE RIGHT NOW. I CAN TELL YOU WE USE TERMS THAT AREN'T IN STATE CODE.

FOR EXAMPLE, MASSAGE TECHNICIAN IS NOT NOT IN STATE CODE. NOBODY USES THAT THAT PHRASING ANYMORE.

SOMETHING THAT THAT WE'D AT LEAST NEED TO DO. WE PROVIDE NO LICENSING EXCEPTIONS IN EXEMPTIONS IN OUR CODE FOR HOME BASED BUSINESSES OR MEDICAL OR THESE OTHER TYPES OF PROVIDERS.

IT JUST BASICALLY SAYS ANYBODY THAT ENGAGES IN MASSAGE IN THE CITY OF WEST JORDAN NEEDS TO GET A GENERAL BUSINESS LICENSE AND COMPLY WITH WITH OUR CODE, AND THEN WE DON'T OBVIOUSLY HAVE ANY OF OUR MASSAGE ESTABLISHMENT THINGS. AND, AND UPDATES TO, TO WHAT THE STATE HAS DONE. SO I THINK THIS IS KIND OF THE, THE GENERAL OR AT LEAST THE FIRST KIND OF STOPPING POINT, WHICH IS JUST WHETHER OR NOT THE COUNCIL IS INTERESTED IN BRINGING OUR CODE IN LINE WITH THE STATE CODE, AT LEAST SO FAR AS DEFINITIONS, THE LICENSING REGULATIONS, THINGS THAT THE STATE HAS HAS RECENTLY ENACTED IN THIS LAST LEGISLATIVE SESSION AND WHETHER WE'RE WE'RE WANTING TO TOUCH IT OR IF THE MAJORITY'S HAPPY TO JUST NOT NOT TOUCH IT. SO DO WE WANT TO BRING OUR STATE CODE, OUR, OUR CODE UP TO, TO ALIGN WITH STATE CODE? IS THERE ANYONE AGAINST THAT? I THINK IT'D BE PRETTY STUPID IF YOU DON'T. THE STATE CODE, I MEAN, IT'S THERE AND WE NEED TO GIVE IT A CHANCE TO WORK. SO I HAVE A LOT OF NOTES, BUT A LOT OF IT'S ON THE ZONING. CAN WE ANSWER THIS ONE FIRST? NO, THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. I'M LIKE, YES OKAY. IS THERE ANYONE THAT'S NOT GOOD WITH BRINGING OUR CODE UP TO LINE WITH THE STATE IN LINE? I'LL BE HONEST, IT SEEMS LIKE A SILLY QUESTION BECAUSE AREN'T WE REQUIRED TO ANYWAY? WELL, I IT'S JUST THAT WE OUR CODE MAY NOT HAVE THE FULL FORCE AND EFFECT OF LAW IF WE DON'T. BUT IF THERE'S CERTAIN PROVISIONS OF THE STATE CODE THAT MAYBE WE WANT TO LEAVE OUT. AND MAYBE WHAT I WOULD SAY IS IF YOU CHOOSE TO SAY. GLAD LARRY'S HERE, IF, IF, IF WE CHOOSE TO SAY, LOOK, LET'S JUST LET THE STATE DEAL WITH THIS. WE JUST WE JUST WANT TO DO THE BARE MINIMUM. I GUESS THAT'S THAT'S A POINT THAT WE COULD SAY, LOOK, WE'RE WE'RE NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN GETTING INVOLVED WITH IT. I DON'T KNOW IF I JUST HEARD PAMELA OR CALVIN OR WHO SAY IT, BUT BUT SAY JUST BARE MINIMUM. LET'S STAY OUT OF IT. LET'S LET THE STATE RUN WITH THEIR PROGRAM, AND WE'LL JUST MAKE SURE, SO LONG AS THEY'VE GOT THE NECESSARY STATE LICENSES, WE'LL DO THE ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM. PATRICK, IF YOU CAN REDUCE THIS TO ONE PARAGRAPH OF FOUR SENTENCES, THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH FOR US. I'D SAY GREAT, RIGHT? IF YOU'RE SAYING, HEY, WE WANT IT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE TRACK AND FOLLOW AND THAT WE'RE MORE INVOLVED AND THAT WE REQUIRE VERIFICATION OF ALL STEPS AND THAT WE'RE INSPECTING THE PREMISES OR DOING A LITTLE BIT MORE. I THINK THAT'S THAT'S WHERE MAYBE THE DIFFERENCES LIE. OKAY. DOES THAT HELP AT ALL? THE BARE MINIMUM, MAYBE A LITTLE BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT IN THAT. YEAH, THERE'S JUST A SPECTRUM, I GUESS IS TO SAY. I MEAN THEY HAVE TO REGISTER WITH STATE. THEY HAVE THE OVERSIGHTS, THEY'VE GOT EXPANDS THE MISDEMEANOR OFFENSES. THERE'S A LOT AND SPORTS ANTI-TRAFFICKING I GET THAT. THAT'S GREAT. I IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE FOR US TO NOT ABIDE BY IT, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING THAT TAKES AWAY FROM THE

[00:40:01]

NOT TO THIS POINT. I THINK THEY SHOULD BE IF WE'RE GOING TO DO ANY SORT OF ENHANCEMENTS, THAT'S THAT'S MY NUMBER ONE MASSAGE BUSINESSES HAVE TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. AND IF WE'RE GOING TO ENHANCE WHAT THEY DO IN OUR CITY WITH THIS, THEY HAVE GOT TO BE AT THE TABLE. SO MY THOUGHT WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT THE, THE, THE, THE TITLE 13, THAT WAS, THAT WAS IN OUR, OUR STUFF.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT WE'RE PUTTING IN THERE THAT I THINK ARE UNTENABLE FOR THE BUSINESS AND FOR THE CITY. FOR EXAMPLE. HANG ON. KEVIN 13 WHAT? 13 5C55F THERE'S A LOT OF NO THIS I'M SORRY. THIS IS IN 42H. 42H4 TO 13. RIGHT. SO 13 IS THE ZONING. SORRY. AND 424 IT IT IT IT TALKS ABOUT. IT'S IMPLIED AT LEAST THAT ANYTIME I MEAN HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH EMPLOYEES THAT ARE CHANGING. YOU KNOW, I WILL USE OUR STAR POLICE DEPARTMENT. THEY NEVER HAVE ANY TURNOVER. SO THEY NEVER HAVE ANY ISSUES REPLACING EMPLOYEES. BUT THE FIRE DEPARTMENT IS DIFFERENT, RIGHT? NO. WHAT WE'VE GOT TO DO IS WE'VE GOT TO DO COMMON SENSE REGULATIONS THAT SAY. AS A MORE AS A MATTER OF FACT, THAT IF WEST JORDAN PD GOES AND KNOCKS ON A DOOR AT A, AT A, AT A PLACE WHERE THERE'S A MASSAGE BUSINESS OR CODE ENFORCEMENT GOES AND KNOCKS ON IT, ON AN ENFORCEMENT THAT YOU CAN SAY, OH, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A, B, C, D, IF YOU'RE NOT, YOU'RE OUT OF COMPLIANCE.

IT CAN'T BE SUPER SUBJECTIVE. WE CAN'T HAVE PEOPLE TRACKING WHO'S EMPLOYEES AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS ALL THE TIME. AND SO THERE'S THAT'S WHERE I'M COMING FROM. AND IF YOU WANT TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THOSE WELL, ON THAT POINT THOUGH, I THINK THAT'S PART OF SOME OF THE NEW STATE REGULATIONS, IS THAT THE, THE, THE ESTABLISHMENT ACTUALLY HAS TO BE REGISTERED. WELL, I GET THAT. AND IN ORDER TO BE REGISTERED THOUGH, YOU HAVE TO KEEP UPDATED WITH WHO'S LICENSED ON THOSE PREMISES. BUT THAT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE BUSINESS TO COMPLY. THEY DON'T HAVE TO SEND IT TO THE CITY OR TO THE STATE EVERY TIME. WELL, THEY DO HAVE TO SEND IT TO THE STATE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR PREMISES ARE PROPERLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO HAVE THEIR REGISTRATION, THEY HAVE TO HAVE THEIR LICENSING, THEY HAVE TO HAVE THEIR INTAKE FORMS, THEIR SIGNAGE, THEIR INSPECTIONS, AND THEY HAVE THEIR FINES, WHICH IS QUITE SIGNIFICANT. SO WE DON'T NEED TO BE OVERREGULATION ON TOP OF WHAT THE STATE LAW IS DOING. WE DON'T NEED TO RISK DUPLICATION AND CONFUSION. I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT. AND AT THE SAME TIME, THESE ARE LEGITIMATE BUSINESSES. WE CAN'T HARM THEM TO GET AT ILLEGITIMATE BUSINESSES. THEY CAN'T BE THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE FOR OUR FIGHT AGAINST THIS TRAFFICKING. WELL, AND WE DON'T WANT TO CREATE A BURDENSOME ON OUR STAFF THAT INCREASES COSTS, THAT SOMEHOW WE HAVE TO COVER THAT, TO COVER THAT COST. BECAUSE THE WAY THAT WE GENERALLY COVER THOSE COSTS IS INCREASED. THE CONSOLIDATED FEE SCHEDULE. AND IT PUTS IT BACK ON THE BUSINESS, WHICH GOES TO WHERE THE PROBLEM ISN'T WHERE MASSAGE THERAPY IS LOCATED. IT'S THE LACK OF RESOURCES TO SHUT DOWN THE BAD ACTORS. AND WE'VE GOT TO MAKE THAT CLEAR. SO IT'S BEEN MY UNDERSTANDING THROUGH ALL THIS THAT EXISTING BUSINESSES WOULD JUST BE NON-CONFORMING. YEAH, BUT WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY AS A NON-CONFORMING HOWEVER, WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY GROW? WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY ADD MORE? WHAT

[00:45:03]

AND THEN WE TALKED ABOUT TITLE FOUR. SO TITLE FOUR IS KIND OF A COMBINATION OF WHAT OTHER CITIES IN THE STATE ARE DOING, WHAT OTHER CITIES AROUND THE NATION. THIS IS NOT ISOLATED TO UTAH. I THINK WE TALKED ABOUT LAST TIME THAT SOME CITIES, LIKE CLEARFIELD HAVE A CODE THAT'S LIKE UP TO 30 PAGES JUST DEALING WITH MASSAGE, WHICH IS OVERBOARD. YOU WOULDN'T EVER I WOULD FEEL EMBARRASSED. YOU SHOULDN'T BE TREATING THEM LIKE THEY'RE CRIMINAL. HERE'S HERE'S THE DEAL. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE REVISED LAND USE TABLE. LET'S, LET'S YEAH, WE'RE I PUT IT AT THE TOP BECAUSE I KNEW IN THE ONE IN THE ONE THAT PART OF THE REASON I GOT REJECTED FROM THE MAIN COUNCIL MEETING A FEW NIGHTS, A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, WAS THAT TWO ZONES PROHIBIT WERE GOING TO PROHIBIT MASSAGE THERAPY, WHICH SPECIFICALLY WOULD PROHIBIT A BUSINESS LIKE MASSAGE ENVY AND THEY WOULD BE GRANDFATHERED IN. BUT WHO WOULD BE GRANDFATHERED IN THERE.

BECAUSE MASSAGE ENVY IS A FRANCHISE. AND IF A FRANCHISEE SELLS AND I'LL GIVE MY OWN PERSONAL EXAMPLE OF A BUSINESS THAT WAS A FRANCHISE. I BOUGHT A BUSINESS FROM A FROM AN LLC WHO HAD RUN THE BUSINESS FOR TEN YEARS. WE DIDN'T CHANGE THE NAME, I BOUGHT IT, WE RAN IT FOR FIVE YEARS, STARTED CHANGING THE NAME AT THE SAME LOCATION. THEN WE MOVED ACROSS THE STREET TO PARKVIEW VILLAGE, CHANGED THE NAME TO GO H2O, AND I SOLD IT TO ANOTHER PERSON. NOW HOW MANY BUSINESSES IS THAT? IS THAT ONE? BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME WATER STORE THAT WAS REALLY BOUGHT FROM PEARSON WATER COMPANY 20 YEARS AGO, OR IS IT THREE SEPARATE BUSINESSES BECAUSE PEARSON'S OWNED IT, GREEN'S OWNED IT, AND NOW WHATEVER THE COMPANY IS THAT OWNS IT IS THAT THREE SEPARATE BUSINESSES. AND IF MASSAGE ENVY DECIDED TO SELL, THEY BECOME A NEW BUSINESS, NEW BUSINESS LICENSE. NOW THEY'RE OUT. THEY'RE NOT GRANDFATHERED. SO CLARIFY. WE CAN ANSWER THAT IF WE GO BY THE USE. WELL, OKAY. YOU GO BY THE USE. BUT BUT I'M GOING TO PICK ON I'M GOING TO PICK ON ONE BECAUSE THAT THE ONE TWO THERE'S AN SC2 TODAY I LOOKED IT UP ON THE INTERNET.

AND IF IT'S ON THE INTERNET IT MUST BE TRUE. LINCOLN SAID THAT HE DID. RIGHT? RIGHT. RIGHT AFTER AL GORE INVENTED THE INTERNET. THERE IS THERE IS A BUSINESS AT 3691 SOUTH, 90TH SOUTH OR 3039. YEAH. 3961 SOUTH, 90 SOUTH. I WONDER WHOSE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT IS IN. IT'S A DAY SPA THAT DOES MASSAGE THERAPY. HAVING A MASSAGE BUSINESS OR ARE THEY A DAY SPA? THAT'S IN AN SC2 ZONE? SPA WITH AN ANCILLARY USE OF MASSAGE THERAPY. OKAY, BUT SO WHAT PREVENTS SOMEBODY. WHAT WHAT PREVENTS SOMEBODY. BECAUSE AND I'LL GIVE YOU THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF ALL KINDS OF BUSINESSES WE HAVE IN SC2 ZONES BECAUSE THERE'S, THERE'S LIKE SIX OF THEM WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE OF HERE. HOW MANY NAIL SPAS ARE THERE. OKAY. WE'RE NOW IN NAIL SPA THAT HAS AN ANCILLARY BUSINESS A MASSAGE. YEAH WE'RE WE'RE A YOGA PLACE,

[00:50:03]

AND YOU CAN HAVE A MASSAGE THERAPY BUSINESS ALL DAY IN THERE ALL DAY LONG. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? WE DON'T. WE HAVE SOME ANSWERS TO THAT. IF I'M. I'LL JUST GIVE PATRICK SOME TIME. HOLD ON, YOU GUYS. WE'RE HAVING A DISCUSSION. YEAH, BRING IT DOWN A LITTLE BIT. LET'S LET'S TALK ABOUT. IT'S AFFECTING PEOPLE'S LIVES. I'M JUST. IT IS. WE NEED TO HAVE. WE'RE GETTING UPSET. I'M NOT GETTING UPSET. I'M JUST SAYING IT'S. YOU'RE YELLING AND SCREAMING. I KNOW WE'RE GETTING TO THE ABSURDITY OF. LET'S JUST CALM DOWN. LISTEN, WE DON'T NEED TO GET UPSET. SO AND REMEMBER, EVERY DECISION WE MAKE IN THIS AS THIS BODY AFFECTS PEOPLE'S LIVES.

YEAH, SOMETIMES TO A GREATER EXTENT THAN OTHERS. BUT EVERY DECISION WE MAKE AFFECTS PEOPLE'S LIVES. PATRICK. SO I THINK SCOTT HAD AN EMAIL THAT WAS SENT OUT BEFORE THE MEETING TODAY DISCUSSING SOME OF THE ISSUES REGARDING THAT. DO YOU WANT TO JUST TALK TO THAT BROADLY? YEAH. AGAIN, THE INTENT WAS TO FOCUS ON CODE AMENDMENTS THAT THAT ARE SOLELY MASSAGE THERAPY. SEPARATE DEFINITION. I FORGET THE NAME OF YOUR BUSINESS, THE ONE THAT COUNCILMAN GREEN WAS TALKING ABOUT IN THE PC ZONE. IT IS THEY HAVE THEIR BUSINESS LICENSE AND IT'S A IT WAS CLASSIFIED AND DEFINED AS A PERSONAL PERSONAL SERVICES, WHICH IS PERMITTED IN THE IN THE PC. THIS WOULD NOT DIRECTLY AFFECT. AND NOW THERE IS A GAME THAT COULD BE PLAYED.

AND THAT'S MY POINT SCOTT. WE'RE WE'RE WE'RE WE'RE WE'RE WE'RE PLAYING GAMES HERE BECAUSE SOMEBODY'S CONDUCTING MASSAGE AND IT'S A PERSONAL SERVICE. SO IF I'M A MASSAGE PERSON ALL I GOT TO COME IN AND MASSAGE BUSINESS SAY I'M, I'M A PERSONAL SERVICE AND I'M EXEMPT FROM ALL THE MASSAGE LICENSE RULES. WE SHOULDN'T BE USING A ZONING HAMMER TO HIT A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS ENFORCEMENT. SCALPEL. WE'RE TALKING. WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN THIS CITY.

COMMENTS, PLEASE. WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS 4 OR 5, 4 OR 5, SIX BAD ACTORS IN THE CITY RIGHT NOW. SO THAT'S A GOOD POINT. AND YEAH, PLEASE. STAFF HAS IDENTIFIED A PATTERN OF REALLY BAD ILLEGAL ACTIONS. AND THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT WE COULD GO ABOUT THIS. WE COULD USE ZONING TOOLS. WE COULD USE BUSINESS LICENSE TOOLS. YOU KNOW. BUT ULTIMATELY IT'S A POLICY CALL. AND SO WE'RE JUST WE'RE JUST BRINGING THIS UP FOR DISCUSSION AS THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT WE'VE SEEN OVER AND OVER AND OVER. AND WE'RE CALLING YOUR ATTENTION TO IT. WE PROVIDED SOME OPTIONS AND ULTIMATELY COUNCIL, IT IS YOUR CALL. BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. IT'S ULTIMATELY OUR CALL. BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY. THE DIFFERENTIATION BY HAVING A PERSONAL SERVICES BUSINESS AND THAT CONDUCTING MASSAGE THERAPY IN A PC ZONE, BUT YET FOUR BLOCKS DOWN THE STREET ARE IN A ZONE. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? THEY'RE BOTH IN A PROFESSIONAL OFFICE TYPE ENVIRONMENT. AND, AND, AND I THINK THAT SHOULD BE THE CONSIDERATION IS THAT THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SIMILARLY SITUATED PEOPLE BEING TREATED SIMILARLY. AND WE'RE MAKING THESE FINE DISTINCTIONS ON WHETHER IT'S PC ZONE OR WHETHER IT'S A ZONE OR A ZONE.

[00:55:01]

WE DO THAT. WE DO THAT WITH PROXIMITY RESTRICTIONS ON TOBACCO BUSINESSES. WE DO THAT ON A LOT OF THINGS. I THINK IT'S JUST A IT'S A CALL IF YOU IF YOU WANT TO UTILIZE THAT TOOL. IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'VE SEEN THROUGH LICENSING, THROUGH MULTIPLE REVOCATIONS. IF IT'S SOMETHING THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNCIL DOESN'T LIKE, I DON'T KNOW THAT ANYBODY'S GOING TO BE HEARTBROKEN. YOU AND I HAD A DISCUSSION FOR ABOUT 45 MINUTES. WELL, IT WAS TWO HOURS TOGETHER, AN HOUR AND 45, BUT ABOUT 45 MINUTES OF IT WAS, WHY? WHY SHOULDN'T WE JUST ADOPT A GOOD LANDLORD PROGRAM FOR BUSINESSES? WE HAVE A GOOD LANDLORD PROGRAM FOR RESIDENTIAL. WE ADOPT A GOOD LANDLORD PROGRAM FOR, FOR BUSINESSES. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THEY AGREED TO IS TO HELP THAT IF THERE'S AN ISSUE LIKE THAT, THAT THEY'LL VOLUNTARILY HELP POLICE, THAT, THEN THEY'RE VOLUNTEERING TO DO IT. WE'RE NOT IMPOSING IT A COUPLE OTHER THINGS, AND THAT BECOMES MORE OF A CARROT FOR THE LANDLORD TO TAKE CARE OF THAT, BECAUSE WE SAY, IF YOU DON'T, THEN YOUR BUSINESS LICENSE FEES GO UP AND THEN THAT'S THE STICK. RIGHT. SO I WOULD RATHER I WOULD RATHER GO THAT WAY FOR THAT. THAT'S MY PERSONAL OPINION. I MEAN, I GET THE FACT THAT WE HAD THE ONE THAT'S HAD EIGHT TIMES. IT'S A IT'S A RECURRING THEME. IT'S HAPPENS IN MIDVALE, IT HAPPENS IN SALT LAKE. IT'S A RECURRING THEME. WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS ENFORCE IT. IT IS SHUT DOWN THE BAD BUSINESS. RIGHT. MR. HUDSON? MR. COULD YOU SPEAK TO SOME OF THE REASONS YOU'RE ASKING FOR THESE DIFFERENT THINGS AND HOW THEY'LL ASSIST YOU IN DOING YOUR JOB? THE ONE LOCATION THAT I DO BELIEVE. YES, MA'AM, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE MIC IS. AND I WANT TO ENSURE THAT THEY HEAR YOU. SORRY. JUST. THE ONE BUSINESS THAT COUNCIL MEMBER WAS REFERRING TO. WE'VE HAD SIX DIFFERENT MASSAGE THERAPISTS IN THERE, AND WE'VE REVOKED OR THEY'VE BEEN RAIDED FOR HUMAN SMUGGLING AND THOSE TYPES OF THINGS. WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ENFORCEMENT, ONCE THEY'RE IN, IT IS NOT THAT EASY TO ENFORCE ON THESE TYPE OF BAD ACTORS GOING AFTER THEIR LICENSES. YOU'VE GOT TO GET THE ASSISTANCE OF THE AG'S OFFICE IF THEY'RE GOING TO DO A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION AS CODE ENFORCEMENT, WE CAN'T JUST WALK IN AND SAY, YOU HAVE VIOLATIONS.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SEE THEM. YOU'RE NOT GOING TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. SO TO SAY THAT THE ENFORCEMENT ARM OF IT, YES, THERE ARE THINGS THAT THAT WE COULD DO TO HELP ENFORCE IT, BUT IT'S NOT LIKE A CODE CASE WHERE YOU GO OUT, YOU SEE THE WEEDS, YOU SEND THE NOTICE. SO THE PROBLEM WE'VE GOT IS PEOPLE ARE WALKING INTO OTHER BUSINESSES RIGHT NEXT DOOR THAT ARE WITNESSING SOME OF THESE THINGS THAT SHOULDN'T BE OCCURRING IN FRONT OF A FAMILY, WALKING IN AND PICKING UP, PICK UP A PIZZA AT THE BUSINESS NEXT DOOR. SO BY BEING ABLE TO REGULATE MORE OF WHERE THEY'RE AT, I THINK HELPS WITH THE LEGITIMATE BUSINESSES, WHICH STILL HOPEFULLY BE THERE.

BUT SOME OF THESE ILLEGITIMATE BUSINESSES WOULDN'T BOTHER TO APPLY FOR JORDAN LANDING OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO WE'RE JUST TRYING TO, I GUESS, PUT A FEW MORE TOOLS IN THEIR TOOL

[01:00:06]

ENFORCEMENT LIMITATIONS ARE ACTUALLY HELPING THE LEGITIMATE BUSINESSES BECAUSE IT'S LIMITING THEIR COMPETITION. NO. HOW WOULD WE LIMIT THE COMPETITION IN IN ANY WAY. WE CAN'T OPEN UP THAT RIGHT NEXT DOOR. WELL, AND HAVING BUSINESSES IN OUR CITY. SO YOU'RE SAYING MASSAGE ESSENTIALLY LEGITIMATE LEGITIMIZE THEIR BUSINESS. BUT WHAT WAS LET LET HIM GET. YOU'VE TALKED SO MUCH KELVIN. LET SOMEONE ELSE GET TO LEGITIMIZE THEIR BUSINESS BECAUSE WE'RE GETTING RID OF THE BAD ACTORS. SO I HAVE I HAVE A THOUGHT. WE DO HAVE AT LEAST ONE BUSINESS OWNER HERE, WHOM WE HAVE RECEIVED AT LEAST FOUR LETTERS FROM CLIENTS. AND SOME OF THESE THINGS IN MY MIND JUST MAKE SENSE. SO IS THERE AN APPETITE OF THE COUNCIL BECAUSE I HAVE ENOUGH TIME ON OUR AGENDA TO PERHAPS INVITE? I THINK I KNOW OUR FIRST NAME IS ANGELA. I CAN'T REMEMBER YOUR LAST NAME. ALLEN. ALLEN. ANGELA ALLEN TO THE TABLE TO MAYBE BECAUSE THERE ARE LIKE I THINK THERE ARE WAYS THAT WE COULD HELP BOTH SIDES. LIKE AFTER WE WERE SHOWN THE PICTURES OF THE WINDOW UNCOVER WINDOW COVERINGS, I WAS DRIVING WITH MY SISTER TO PICK UP MY

[01:05:05]

OKAY. MADELINE. COME ON UP. COULD SOMEONE JUST SCOOT A CHAIR UP THERE FOR MADELINE, PLEASE? YOU CAN JUST SIT ON MY LAP. ALL RIGHT, SO I THINK WHAT I WANT TO DO IS THE WINDOW COVERINGS.

LADIES, IS THERE AN ISSUE OF PREVENTING WINDOW COVERINGS? SO THE WINDOW COVERINGS THAT WE'VE SEEN ARE LIKE SOME PHOTOS THAT LOOK LEGIT, AND THEN THE REST OF THE WINDOWS ARE ALL BLACKED OUT.

WOULD THAT BE A NEGATIVE IMPACT, TO PUT THAT IN SAYING THAT THAT'S NO LONGER ALLOWED? NO, NOT AT ALL OKAY. YOU DON'T HAVE LIKE THAT WINDOWS. ALL RIGHT. LIMITING HOURS PATRICK WHAT DO YOU HAVE IN THERE LIKE 7 TO 8. THAT'S 7 A.M. TO 9 P.M. I KNOW FROM A GOOGLE AT LEAST ONE OF YOU TWO UNTIL NINE, RIGHT? YES. I'M OPENING NINE, BUT I HAVE ACCEPTED CLIENTS, YOU KNOW, LIKE BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT, YOU KNOW, WORK DURING THE DAY AND THEY NEED TO COME IN THE EVENING. AND SOMETIMES WE HAVE LIMITED AVAILABILITY. SO SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, EVEN GOING TO 10 OR 11, I DON'T LIKE GOING ANYTHING PAST THAT. EVEN PERSONALLY IN THE MORNING I HAVE HAD SOMEONE COME IN AT LIKE, YOU KNOW, 6 A.M. BECAUSE THEY HAVE WORK AT 7 OR 8 OR WHATEVER IT IS. SO I DON'T KNOW IF I AGREE WITH, YOU KNOW, THAT MUCH OF LIMITATION, BUT A LIMITATION OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, 11 TO LIKE 5 A.M, YOU HANDLE SIX TO 10 OR 6 TO MIDNIGHT. YEAH. I'M IN I GUESS SIX TO. YEAH, THAT WOULD WORK. YEAH, THAT WOULD WORK. SIX TO MIDNIGHT. TOO LATE. AND ONE MASSAGE OWNERS OPINION OF HOW LATE SHE LIKES TO WORK IS NOT INDICATIVE OF HOW LATE ALL MASSAGE. I AGREE, I AGREE, BUT 10 P.M. A LOT OF THINGS. THAT YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO MASSAGE IS INTERESTING. WELL, IF WE IF WE DON'T, IF WE DON'T PUT ANY LIMITATIONS, THEN THE MARKET WILL DICTATE MASSAGE RULES. AND IF WE SAY YOU CAN'T BE OPEN PAST TEN AND IT'S AN ILLEGITIMATE BUSINESS, GUESS WHAT? OH, SORRY, YOU CAME FOR YOUR PROSTITUTE, BUT THE DOOR WAS LOCKED BECAUSE WE CAN'T BE OPEN PAST TEN. GIVE ME A BREAK. THEY'LL UNLOCK THE DOOR. IN MAKING SURE THAT TEN DOES NOT MEAN MAKES IT EASIER TO ENFORCE. IF WE CAN OBSERVE PEOPLE GOING IN AFTER TEN. YEAH.

WHAT IF IT'S THE MASSAGE OWNER'S FAMILY OR THE CLEANING CREW? OR WHO IS GOING IN AFTER TEN AND YOU GET A SEARCH WARRANT? YEAH. BECAUSE YOU GOT I MEAN. I HAVE REASONABLE SUSPICION STILL THE FLOOR PLANS. IT WAS JUST THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO SUBMIT YOUR FLOOR PLANS IN ADVANCE AS PART OF THE LICENSE, AS PART OF YOUR LICENSING. WOULD THAT BE A DETRIMENT TO YOUR BUSINESS? NO.

LIMITATION ON SECURITY CAMERAS. IT BASICALLY SAYS THAT THEY CAN'T. THEY CAN ONLY BE IN THE LOBBY. I THINK IS WHAT IT SAID. IS THAT RIGHT? YEAH, ONLY IN THE LOBBY. I THINK THAT'S ALREADY THE UTAH LAW BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HAVE THOSE. THAT'S WHAT I LEARNED IN SCHOOL ANYWAYS, IS THAT WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE CAMERAS IN THE IN THE TREATMENT ROOM. OKAY. JUST UP FRONT WHERE THE. YEAH. AND WE HAVE ONE IN THE LOBBY AND STUFF SO YOU CAN SEE WHO'S COMING AND GOING AND YOU CAN'T SEE PATRICK. I DON'T REALLY KNOW THE LIMITATION ON BUSINESS SIGNAGE, BUT YOU. YEAH, HERE'S HERE'S WHERE THIS ONE IS. AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT, THAT WE'VE KIND OF LOOKED AT IN THE CITY AS A WHOLE. BUT MOST OF THE SPOTS THAT WE HAVE CONCERNS WITH HAVE A SIGN THAT SAYS AND USUALLY WHITE AND RED MASSAGE PHONE NUMBER AND THAT'S IT. AND USUALLY WE DON'T HAVE A BUSINESS LICENSE FOR MASSAGE PHONE NUMBER. IT'S USUALLY FOR A NAME LIKE YOUR LOGO. YEAH, LIKE THE LOGO AND THE NAME OF THE PROVIDER. AND SO I THINK SIGNAGE ACROSS THE BOARD IS SOMETHING

[01:10:05]

WE DON'T NEED ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THE FIRE DEPARTMENT ALREADY REQUIRES THE NAME OF THE BUSINESS. ISN'T THAT RIGHT, BROCK? BECAUSE I HAD TO FILE A I WAS NOT HAPPY THAT I HAD TO FILE A NINE PAGE BUSINESS LICENSE APPLICATION TO, TO MAKE THE SIGN MATCH THE NAME OF THE BUSINESS.

BECAUSE WE PUT OUR LLC AND NOT THE DBA ON THE BUSINESS LICENSE AND IT TOOK IT, IT TOOK NINE PAGES TO DO THAT. IT'S NOT NINE ANYMORE. WELL, THAT'S GOOD, BUT IT WASN'T IT. IT'S EIGHT. BUT BUT WE ALREADY HAVE THAT DON'T WE BROCK. YES. SO THAT'S ALREADY CURRENT CODE ENFORCEMENT. IT IS I THINK I THINK THE REASON THIS CAME UP IS JUST THAT IT'S SO SPECIFIC TO WHAT WE SEE ON THE MASSAGE, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S WORTH INCLUDING ANY ADDITIONAL LIMITATIONS. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S PHONE NUMBER, LIKE IF YOU WANT TO ALLOW THE PHONE NUMBER ON THE SIGNAGE OR NOT. IT IS A TYPICAL CALLING CARD. I THINK WE'VE ALL SEEN THEM. I, I PUT IT ON HERE IN CASE YOU WANTED TO DISCUSS. SO LADIES, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR OPINION ON THAT FOR US. OUR SIGN YOU KNOW, SO WE SHARE THE SAME OFFICE BUILDING JUST TO SEPARATE ROOMS AND TWO DIFFERENT BUSINESSES ON OUR SIGNAGE. WE DO HAVE OUR PHONE NUMBERS, BUT IT IS AFTER OUR LIKE, YOU KNOW, LEGITIMATE LOGOS AND THINGS. BUT YEAH, HE IS RIGHT ABOUT THE, YOU KNOW, RED LETTERING AND THE PHONE NUMBER. LIKE THAT'S DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT CAN CATCH YOUR EYE IF YOU'RE NOTICING IT. IT'S ALL OVER EVERYWHERE. JUST THE LOGO AND THE NAME OF THE BUSINESS ON THE SIGNAGE. I, I THINK THAT THAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THE ILLEGITIMATE BUSINESSES. SKETCHY. YOU GUYS, DO YOU FEEL LIKE THERE'S ANYTHING ON HERE THAT WE'RE MISSING THAT WE, THAT WE PERHAPS COULD IMPLEMENT THAT WOULD HELP US TO ISOLATE THE BAD ACTORS AND, AND GET THEM OUT OF OUR CITY WHILE NOT HARMING US. YEAH. OF COURSE, I THINK IT'S ALREADY STIGMATIZED. WE'RE TRYING TO ELIMINATE. IT. CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT G MEANS? BEFORE G WAS WAS KIND OF WHAT COUNCILMEMBER GREEN WAS TALKING ABOUT. SO WHAT WE'VE HAD IN SOME OF THESE SPOTS IS PERSON A COMES IN, STARTS A LEGITIMATE MASSAGE BUSINESS CODE GOES IN AND SHUTS THEM DOWN THE NEXT DAY. THERE'S SOMEBODY IN HERE, PERSON B APPLYING FOR THE SAME THING, SAME EVERYTHING. AND THEN THEY GET SHUT DOWN. AND THEN AND THEN IT KEEPS GOING ON. SO WHAT THIS IS, IS A CONCEPT THAT IF WE REVOKE OR SUSPEND THE LICENSE THAT A MASSAGE BUSINESS COULDN'T JUST KEEP COMING BACK IN AND BACK IN AND BACK IN AND ROLLING THE SAME SCHEME WITH THE SAME PEOPLE, WITH JUST A DIFFERENT FRONT MAN OR WOMAN? YEAH, THAT WOULD JUST MAKE SENSE. BUT, YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE PEOPLE CAN MAKE OTHER FRONTS OTHER THAN JUST MASSAGE THERAPY. IT HAPPENS WITH, YOU KNOW, NAIL TEXTS, YOU KNOW? SO WHAT WHAT STOPS SOMEONE? IF WE WERE TO DO THAT, WHAT STOPS, YOU KNOW, THEN TO SAY THAT THEY'RE NAIL TECHNICIANS OR, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE CHIROPRACTORS OR WHATEVER COMING IN. AND ENFORCEMENT HAS STATED THAT THAT IS WHERE IT'S HAPPENING. AND NOT KNOWING IT IS UNTIL WE PUT ALL THESE THINGS ON MASSAGE BUSINESSES AND IT'LL BE CHIROPRACTORS, AND AFTER IT'S CHIROPRACTORS, THEN IT'LL BE NAIL TECHS, LOCK DOWN ALL THE NAIL TECHS AND THEN IT'LL BE CALL OR WHATEVER. SO NO, G IS WHAT WE'RE SAYING. I'VE SEEN I'VE SEEN ANGER ABOUT G, G IS THIS THIS IS ABOUT THE WHOLE THING. G IS SILLY BECAUSE THEN YOU CAN NEVER HAVE A LEGITIMATE MASSAGE BUSINESS MOVE INTO WHERE A PLACE THAT WAS SHUT DOWN, I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS A IT WAS A ONE YEAR IMPLEMENTATION. JUST THAT IT WASN'T FOREVER. SO I WANT TO SAY A FEW THINGS HERE AND I'LL, I'LL, I'LL KEEP IT SHORT. I THINK THIS WHOLE THING.

ARE THEY FOR THE LADIES OR IS IT DOESN'T MATTER. I JUST WANT I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING. DON'T

[01:15:04]

WE CAN REQUEST IT, BUT YOU'RE NOT GETTING IT. SO IT IS PART OF THE BUSINESS LICENSE STRUCTURE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO BUSINESS LICENSE. YEAH. ISN'T THAT HOW YOU CAN SHUT THEM DOWN IF THEY CAN'T GIVE YOU THOSE THINGS AND THEN THEY START RIGHT BACK UP. THAT'S THAT'S THE SPOT.

BUT I MEAN, HOW DO THEY START UP IF THEY CAN'T GET A BUSINESS LICENSE BECAUSE THEY, THEY'LL SAY, WE'VE ONLY GOT ONE MASSEUS, AND THAT'S THE PERSON WHOSE LICENSE, IF YOU HAVE ONE LEGITIMATE, THEY HAVE ONE LEGITIMATE PERSON. RIGHT. AND USUALLY THEY'RE OUT OF STATE THAT COMES IN. AND IF YOU GO IN AND THAT PERSON ISN'T THERE AND THEY'RE GIVING A MASSAGE, THEY GET SHUT DOWN INSTANTLY. THAT'S THE THING FOR ME. GO AHEAD. YOU GO. OKAY, HANG ON, HANG ON THOUGH, BECAUSE IT'S CHAD. FIRST IT WAS TO SEE IF THESE LADIES HAD ANY MORE TO OFFER. WELL, I WAS GOING TO TRY TO SAY SOMETHING WITH THE LADIES, BUT THEY DIDN'T. THAT'S FINE. OKAY THEN, CHAD, GO AHEAD. I'VE HEARD ENOUGH IN THE PAST HALF HOUR THAT WE JUST NEED TO GET RID OF ALL OF THIS AND NOT DO ANY OF IT. I DON'T HAVE FOUR PEOPLE THAT WANT ANY OF THIS. I SEEN A LOT OF ANGER. I'VE SEEN A LOT OF FRUSTRATION. I'VE SEEN EMAILS. I FEEL THAT THIS WAS DONE TO HELP OUR CITY. THIS WAS DONE TO GET RID OF THE BAD ACTORS. OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S AT LEAST FOUR ON THIS COUNCIL THAT DON'T LIKE MOST OF THIS, SO IF THAT'S WHAT THE COUNCIL WANTS TO DO, I'M NOT SURE WE SHOULD SPEND ANOTHER HOUR ON THIS. I'M NOT SURE THAT I CONCUR WITH THAT. AND I WELL, I'M NOT DONE TALKING. OKAY. LET ME LET ME KEEP TALKING. EVERYONE KEEPS TALKING OVER EVERYBODY.

NOBODY IS COMING FORWARD AND SAYING THESE ARE ALL GREAT. ALL I SEE IS ANGER ON THIS TABLE OR FRUSTRATION ABOUT IT. AND SO IF THAT'S THE CASE, I'M NOT SURE WE SHOULD SPEND ANOTHER HOUR TALKING ABOUT THIS BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GOING TO COME TO CONSENSUS THAT, YEAH, LET'S DO LET'S DO A I'VE SEEN THE PC ZONE'S A PROBLEM. I'VE SEEN GEEZ, THE PROBLEM, LIMITED HOURS IS A PROBLEM. WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS ANYMORE? LET'S JUST MOVE ON. I SUPPORT ALL OF THIS PERSONALLY. I SUPPORT HIM. THAT'S GOOD. FROM MY THING. REAL QUICK, I WILL TELL YOU THAT. AND THIS WAS YEARS AGO. I WOULD TELL MY WIFE ALL THE TIME. THAT'S A PROSTITUTION PLACE. AND THAT WAS WHEN I WAS ON THE COUNCIL AND EVERYTHING. AND IT'S JUST TO ME, IT WAS ABOUT AS OBVIOUS AS YOU COULD GET THAT THAT WAS A PROSTITUTION PLACE AND NOT WHERE YOU GO TO GET A LEGITIMATE MASSAGE. TO ME, THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN WHERE POLICE CODE ENFORCEMENT, THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT WAS A POLICE, YOU KNOW, A PROSTITUTION PLACE AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING WHATEVER THEY COULD. AND OBVIOUSLY WE'D SHUT THEM DOWN. THEY'D START BACK UP, SHUT THEM DOWN, START BACK UP. I LIKE THE LIMITATION ON THE BUSINESSES GOING INSIDE AFTER A PRIOR PRIOR REVOCATION.

IF IT IS, WE CAN SET THE LEVEL OF IT IF IT'S BECAUSE THEIR SIGN WASN'T THERE. SO WE TOOK AWAY THEIR LICENSE. BUT IF WE CAN FIND A TIER AND SAY THIS WAS THAT, SHUT IT DOWN. BUT TO ME, MAYBE IT WAS, YOU KNOW, AS MUCH TIME AS I SPENT IN LAS VEGAS, BUT IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT PLACE WAS WHERE PROSTITUTION WAS BEING DONE, AND IT WOULD UPSET ME. AND SO THE SIGNAGE THING, I'M ALL ABOUT THE WINDOW COVERINGS. THEY'RE THERE BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO GET IN THAT BUILDING AND THEN HIDE IN THERE. AND THAT'S WHAT THAT'S FOR LIMITED HOURS. I'M GOING TO SAY ALMOST EVERY ONE OF THOSE THINGS WON'T MATTER IF SOMEONE WANTS TO COMMIT A CRIME, THEY'LL COMMIT PROSTITUTION ON EVERY ONE OF THOSE. SO I DON'T KNOW IF WE'RE DOING ANY GOOD BY LIMITING WHAT PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO DO IT RIGHT AND HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO IT RIGHT. IF IT WAS, 10% OF THE PEOPLE OR PROSTITUTION AND WERE TO GO, PAMELA SAID, PUTTING DOWN A HAMMER ON 90% OF THE PEOPLE, THOSE 10%, I'D RATHER SEE US USE OUR SMARTS AND BE ABLE TO GO. THAT ONE PLACE IS AN OBVIOUS PROSTITUTION PLACE. EVERYONE, NO ONE WOULD EVER GO TO THAT PLACE FOR A LEGITIMATE MASSAGE OR THERAPY OR ANYTHING TO A PLACE IN A STRIP MALL WITH ALL OF THIS SIGNAGE UP LIKE THAT AND MASSAGE IN RED LETTER WITH NO NAME. SO I AM A I AM AGAINST THESE JUST FOR THE FACT THAT I THINK THAT THEY

[01:20:07]

AND THAT'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU. THANK YOU. OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD, I AGREE.

WHEN YOU SAID THE CERTIFICATION, YEAH, I WOULD SAY IF YOU GO INTO A PLACE AND YOU SAY YOU'VE GOT ONE GUY LISTED, I SEE YOU'VE GOT FIVE PEOPLE HERE DOING MASSAGES, YOU'RE DONE THAT. AND I WOULD LIKE IT TO BE THAT. THAT'S WHERE I'D LIKE TO USE A HAMMER. SAYING YOU'RE DONE HAS NO TEETH UNLESS WE HAVE G. WELL BUT THAT BUT THAT'S. BUT THAT, THAT'S WHERE I WAS THE ONE WHO SAID I'M OKAY WITH G. THAT WAS THE ONE THAT I THINK IS OKAY IF YOU, IF YOU BREAK THIS BIG LAW, YOU DON'T COME BACK A DAY LATER. AND I'M SORRY IF YOU'RE A, A LANDOWNER, YOU KNOW, A LANDLORD AND YOU'VE LET THIS GO ON, THAT'S KIND OF ON YOU AS WELL. IF IT'S OBVIOUS WHAT HAPPENS IF THE LANDLORD HIRES A MANAGEMENT COMPANY AND THE LANDLORD DOESN'T KNOW BECAUSE IT'S THE PROPERTY MANAGER? LANDLORD WILL FIRE THAT PROPERTY MANAGER AND TO LEARN FROM THEIR BUSINESS AND FIGURE THINGS OUT. SO THAT'S JUST ME. IF YOU'RE GOING TO COMMIT CRIME, YOU'LL COMMIT CRIME AGAINST EVERY ONE OF THOSE. AND THAT'S JUST THE SIMPLE FACT OF IT. SO WE'RE NOT STOPPING. I WOULD LIKE TO PROTECT WHAT THESE PEOPLE DO. AND THE BEST WAY WE CAN DO THAT IS JUST LET THEM DO WHAT THEY DO, BUT HAVE THEM AS FAMILY SAID THEY CAN IF THEY CAN, IF THEY PROBABLY HERE WHERE SOMEONE ILLEGITIMATE IS AND THEY CAN TELL US AND JUST LIKE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE CALL ON PEOPLE WITH BAD YARDS, THEY CAN CERTAINLY LET US KNOW. LOOK, THIS IS WHAT I'M HEARING IS GOING ON AT THIS PLACE AND I'M GOOD WITH I WOULD BE GOOD WITH THAT. I'D LIKE TO SEE MOST OF THAT STUFF. WON'T STOP ANYONE FROM BREAKING. TO ME, THIS IS LIKE PUTTING A NO GUNS SIGN ON THE STREET. THE GUY WHO'S GOING IN TO SHOOT UP THE SCHOOL ISN'T GOING TO STOP BECAUSE THERE'S NO GUNS ON, HE SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY. RIGHT. IT'S GUN FREE ZONE. JUST MEANS TARGET RICH ENVIRONMENT, NO DEFENSE. RIGHT? I MEAN, THIS IS EVEN THOUGH A STEP BEYOND THAT. THIS IS NO TRENCH COATS ALLOWED IN THE SCHOOL BECAUSE THE GUYS WHO CARRY GUNS IN WEAR TRENCH COATS.

THIS IS THIS IS A STEP PAST THE NO GUN THING. THIS IS A NO TRENCH COAT THING. THIS IS A NO BACKPACKS BECAUSE THE GUYS PUT GUNS IN BACKPACKS. HEAVEN FORBID THEY SHOULD HAVE A LEGITIMATE USE FOR HAVING A BACKPACK. HEAVEN FORBID I SHOULD WANT TO NAME MY BUSINESS MASSAGE.

(801) 999-3333. MAYBE THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO NAME MY BUSINESS AND IT MAY NOT BE A GOOD BUSINESS DECISION. ACTUALLY, NO, THAT SHOULD BE ON ME, RIGHT? THAT SHOULD BE ON THE CITY TO TELL ME THAT THAT'S A LEGITIMATE BUSINESS NAME OR BUSINESS SIGN. AND SO ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT WE JUST NOT EVEN TRY TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENING? NOT SUGGEST THAT IF WE HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE TO SUSPECT THAT IT'S HAPPENING, THAT WE GET SEARCH WARRANTS AND WE GO AND WE DO WHAT POLICE DO, WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, THEY CAN'T JUST GO SEE A BUSINESS THAT LOOKS LIKE A LEGITIMATE MASSAGE BUSINESS AND JUST SAY, OH, THAT LOOKS ILLEGAL. THAT LOOKS BAD. SO LET'S GET A WARRANT. THEY CAN'T DO THAT'S NOT THAT'S NOT PROBABLE CAUSE. THAT'S WHY.

WELL, THEY DON'T HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE. THEN GUESS WHAT? FREEDOM HAS A PRICE, AND THE FREEDOM'S PRICE IS SOMETIMES BAD. PEOPLE GET AWAY WITH STUFF. THAT'S TRUE TOO. SORRY. IT COMES DOWN TO THE LACK OF RESOURCES FOR THE BAD ACTORS, OR BREAKING THE LAW. AND HEALTHCARE IS NOT CRIME. AND MASSAGE THERAPY IS A RECOGNIZED HEALTH PROFESSION. AND OUR ZONING SHOULD TREAT IT AS SO.

NOT LIKE A PAWNSHOP OR A SEXUALLY ORIENTED BUSINESS. SO THE WHOLE REASON STAFF BROUGHT THIS TO US IS THE SAME REASON THEY BRING MANY THINGS TO US. THEY WANTED OUR HELP. IF WE DON'T WANT TO HELP THEM, THEN YOU CAN SAY WE DON'T WANT TO HELP THEM. BUT TO SAY NOBODY'S IN FAVOR IS FLAT OUT WRONG. I AM IN FAVOR. I SAID THERE'S NOT ENOUGH IN FAVOR. THERE'S FOUR THAT ARE AGAINST MOST OF THESE. SO DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. WE WANT WE WANT TO. OBVIOUSLY WE WANT TO GET RID OF SEX TRAFFICKING. THE PROBLEM IS WE NEED TO SEPARATE THE SEX TRAFFICKING FROM HEALTH CARE. AND THAT'S THAT'S WHERE THE ISSUE IS. HEALTH CARE NEVER HAS WINDOW COVERINGS THAT COVER ALL THEIR WINDOWS. SO CAN WE AT LEAST ARE THERE FOUR OR MORE THAT ARE WILLING TO SAY THAT? WE CAN SAY, YOU CAN'T DO THAT OR THEY'RE NOT? I'D BE OKAY WITH THAT ONE. I'M OKAY WITH THAT ONE. IF IT APPLIED TO ALL BUSINESSES, CHIROPRACTORS, THE

[01:25:01]

IT'S STARTED. I ONLY SAW THREE HANDS WHEN YOU CALLED FOR THAT. NO. RAISE YOUR HANDS AGAIN. SO PATRICK KNOWS WINDOW COVERINGS. I'M OKAY WITH WINDOW COVERINGS. YOU'VE GOT KENT, CALVIN, KAITLYN AND BOB. SO. I THOUGHT I DID, BUT THAT LAST LITTLE BIT. I GUESS YOU'RE RIGHT. HE'S RIGHT.

WE CAN'T DO ONE AND NOT ANOTHER. YEAH. ARE THERE ANY OTHERS THAT MIGHT HAVE A MAJORITY? ARE WE OKAY WITH ASKING FOR FLOOR PLANS WHEN THEY BRING IN THEIR. FLOOR PLANS AN ISSUE. WHAT ARE THE ISSUE WITH FLOOR PLANS? I MEAN, THEY COULD GIVE YOU A FLOOR PLAN AND THEN STILL HAVE A HIDDEN ROOM, RIGHT? EVERY LAW PEOPLE CAN BREAK AND THEY DO EVERY DAY. BUT I MEAN, I GUESS I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS THE WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE FLOOR PLAN? DO WE WHAT WHAT WOULD BE THE END GAME FOR THAT FLOOR PLAN? WHAT WOULD IT WHAT WOULD IT ACCOMPLISH? YES. SO WHAT WHAT WE WHAT WE'VE SEEN WITH SOME OF THESE SPOTS THAT ARE OPERATING ILLICITLY IS THERE'S LIVING QUARTERS, THERE'S KITCHENS, THERE'S THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO. SO AND ALSO WHEN, WHEN LAW ENFORCEMENT DOES COME BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN FEDERAL SEARCH WARRANTS THAT HAVE BEEN SERVED, IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF THEY COULD COME TO US AS A CITY AND SAY, WHAT ARE WE WALKING INTO? WHAT IS THIS PLACE SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE ON THE INSIDE? THEY ARE HEAVILY CAMERA.

THERE IS A SECURITY CONCERN FOR OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL THAT'S GOING IN. AND I DON'T KNOW IF CHIEF WANTS TO EVEN TALK TO THAT, BUT IT'S MAINLY FOR THE SECURITY AND FOR MAKING SURE THAT THESE AREN'T BEING USED. IT'S MORE TO ADDRESS THE LIVING QUARTERS. THAT WOULD BECAUSE OF THE, THE SEX TRAFFICKING, SEX TYPE, SEX SLAVERY TYPE THINGS. BUT IF YOU GOT THE FLOOR PLAN, THEY TURN IN A LEGITIMATE FLOOR PLAN AND REMODEL IT ANYWAY. IT COULD VERY WELL HAPPEN. IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE THOUGHT MIGHT MIGHT BE A BENEFICIAL TOOL. BUT AGAIN, I MEAN, ARE THERE FOR THAT ARE WILLING TO GIVE STAFF THAT TOOL IF YOU'RE WILLING, RAISE YOUR HAND. I WANT TO HEAR WHAT JEREMY SAYS FIRST. AS FAR AS PLANS GO FOR FLOOR PLANS, IT'S ABOUT SECURITY FOR US.

WE'VE ACTUALLY TALKED BECAUSE THERE'S PROVIDERS THAT WILL ALLOW COMPANIES TO SECURITY CAMERAS UP AND GIVE US OUR FLOOR PLAN SO THAT WHEN WE'RE RESPONDING OUT TO A SERIOUS INCIDENT, WE HAVE, WE CAN PULL THAT INFORMATION INTO OUR COMPUTERS. SO WE'VE TALKED ABOUT POTENTIALLY FIXING THAT AS A GENERAL REQUIREMENT. BUT FOR OPERATIONAL SECURITY IS WHAT THE FLOOR PLANS HELP WITH. THERE CAN MODIFY THEM OBVIOUSLY. AND SO FOR COMPLIANCE PURPOSES IT'S UP TO THEM TO COMPLY. BUT AT LEAST IT GIVES US A BASE OF WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT SEA FOR THAT I COULD I COULD BUY IT FOR THAT. THAT REASON THAT ONE. ARE WE GOING TO APPLY IT TO CHIROPRACTORS AND PHYSICAL THERAPY? WE'RE NOT DISCUSSING THAT. YEAH, BUT I'M SAYING THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT. WE WERE DISCUSSING HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND NO. OKAY, SO DISCUSSING GIVING TOOLS TO THE STAFF THAT THE STAFF HAVE ASKED FOR. IF WE WANT TO ADD THAT TO EVERYTHING, THERE'S A WAY TO DO THAT. WE DO ASK IT FOR JUST SO THEY DO HAVE TO SUBMIT FOR ALCOHOL PERMITS, SERVICE AREAS, STORAGE AREAS. SO IF THERE ARE OTHER INDUSTRIES. OUR REQUIREMENT IS PADS. BOTH.

DO WE WANT TO REQUIRE FLOOR PLANS OR NOT? IF YOU DO, RAISE YOUR HAND. SORRY WE ONLY HAVE THREE. AND THE OTHERS I DON'T THINK WE'RE ANYWHERE NEAR. WELL, LIMITATION ON SECURITY CAMERAS

[01:30:06]

NOT ENOUGH. I THERE'S A THOUGHT OF LIKE CREATING A FIXED TIME FRAME SO THEY CANNOT OPEN UNDER A NEW OWNER FOR A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME TO HELP KIND OF SLOW OR THAT THAT'S, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE CAN DISCUSS AS A POTENTIAL. SO I WOULD BE OKAY WITH SOME RESTRICTION ON G AS LONG AS THERE'S A WAY FOR THE LANDLORD THAT IF IT'S LESS THAN THAT TIME PERIOD, THAT THEY COULD COME BEFORE PATRICK AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS, THAT THEY COULD COME BEFORE THE CITY COUNCIL AND SAY, YES, WE'RE DOING THIS, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO TO PREVENT IT IN THE FUTURE. WILL YOU GRANT ME THE EXCEPTION TO THE RULE? I WOULD BE OKAY IF WE HAD SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I'D BE OKAY WITH THAT, TOO, IF IT WAS THE ALJ. OKAY. YEAH. YEAH. SO WHAT? YOU'RE SO PROBATIONARY. IF I HEAR YOU RIGHT, THAT MAYBE THEY COULD APPEAL THAT DECISION TO THE ALJ.

OR USE THE L. I WOULDN'T SAY IT'S AN APPEAL. IT'S ASKED THE ALJ FOR A WAIVER. RIGHT NOW, THE ALJ SERVES AS OUR APPEAL APPELLATE, RIGHT. SO WE'D HAVE TO DESIGNATE IF THE ALJ DENIES IT, WE'D HAVE TO DESIGNATE SOMEBODY ELSE OR ANOTHER ALJ TO HEAR THE APPEAL OF THE CONSIDERATION FROM THE ALJ. AND ALJ DENIES SOMETHING. SOMEBODY CAN APPEAL IT TO SOMEBODY. THEY COULD. WE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT WE DO AFFORD THEM AN ADMINISTRATIVE. YEAH. IT JUST DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ANY DIFFERENT THAN ALJ. DENIALS ARE ALREADY. SO ARE THEY APPEALING IT TO THE ALJ OR OR ARE THEY. MY RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE AN APPEAL TO THE ALJ SO THAT WE'RE NOT CREATING EXTRA STEPS IN THE PROCESS. OKAY. IF THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS THAT WE SAY IT'S AN APPEAL TO THE ALJ, ALJ OR A WAIVER BECAUSE THE ALJ DOES VARIANCE NOW AND THAT'S NOT HANDLES APPEALS. THE ALJ IS THERE FOR THAT. BUT HE ALSO DOES VARIANCES. SO BUT IF WE CALL IT A WAIVER WE CALL IT SOMETHING DIFFERENT. THEN WE HAVE TO CREATE AN APPEAL OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT. SO THAT'S FINE. OKAY. SO PATRICK NEEDS TO KNOW WHO WANTS TO GO WITH A ONE YEAR WITH A ONE YEAR. YES ONE YEAR STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS OR WHATEVER ONE ONE YEAR PERIOD OF WHAT CAN BE WAIVED BASED ON GOOD COURT. I WOULD USE THE TERM GOOD CAUSE WITH THE AND THIS ISN'T. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT NOT JUST FOR MASSAGE BUSINESSES, BUT FOR OTHER BUSINESSES WHO ARE SHUT DOWN FOR ACTIVITIES THAT IT MAY FALL UNDER, WHETHER IT'S LIKE. PAMELA MAY BE RIGHT THERE IS THAT WE MAY WANT TO DO THE SAME THING FOR LIKE VAPE SHOPS OR PAWN SHOPS, BUSINESSES SHUT DOWN FOR ILLEGAL ACTIVITY. CAN'T HAVE A REPLACEMENT BUSINESS UNLESS I I'M HAPPY TO INFORM YOU THAT RIGHT NOW THAT THEIR BUSINESS LICENSE, REVOKED OR SUSPENDED, CAN APPEAL THAT DECISION TO THE.

BUT WHAT WE'RE SAYING THE REPLACEMENT BUSINESS GOING IN CANNOT REOPEN UNDER A NEW OWNER FOR THE SAME THING WITHIN THAT TIMEFRAME. IT CAN'T JUST APPLY TO MASSAGE OR OTHER FOR THAT WOULD BE IN SUPPORT OF THOSE AMENDMENTS BEING MADE BROADLY. YEAH THAT'S FINE. IT'S NOT BROADLY. WELL, BROADLY, BROADLY TO OUR, OUR SPECIALTY BUSINESSES SUCH AS WHAT I HEARD WAS.

TOBACCO. ANYBODY I WOULD JUST DO ANYTHING I THINK I THINK YOU HAVE TO DO ANY BUSINESS. ANY BUSINESS ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES. RIGHT. LIKE IF I HAD A HOT TUB STORE, FOR EXAMPLE, HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, I HAD A HOT TUB STORE THAT WAS SHUT DOWN FOR DEALING DRUGS OUT OF THE BACK. I CAN'T COME BACK. IT'D BE A LOT HARDER FOR ME TO COME BACK UNDER NEW OWNER WITH A DIFFERENT TYPE OF STORE THAN IT WOULD BE. JUST THE HOT TUBS THEY'RE ALREADY, I THINK, DEALING WITH ON THE BACK END. FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, IF WE ARE LOOKING AT OTHER BUSINESSES, I WOULD LIKE TO DO A LITTLE BIT MORE RESEARCH IN THAT JUST TO CONFIRM THAT WE'RE ON SOLID GROUND TO DO THAT. I THINK IN THIS CASE, WE'RE WE'RE BRINGING A NARROW KIND OF CHANGE THAT WE'RE CONFIDENT WITH. WE'RE BROADENING THAT OUT. THEN I'D WANT TO AT LEAST WE AT LEAST NEED TO BROADEN IT OUT TO THINGS LIKE PAWNSHOPS, VAPE SHOPS, ALL THE ONES THAT WOULD APPLY FOR SPECIAL. AND WE NEED WHAT WE NEED TO DEFINE IN CODE THEN, IS THE SPECIALTY LICENSES THAT WE THINK WOULD BE THAT THAT HAVE MORE LIKELIHOOD TO BE AN ILLEGAL ACTIVITY AND, AND FOCUS ON THOSE WOULD, COULD, COULD WE SAY THEN THAT WE'LL, WE'LL MAKE THIS CHANGE FOR MASSAGE AND THAT

[01:35:04]

RIGHT. OKAY. BUT THIS IS GOING AWAY FROM THIS. SO WE DON'T HAVE FOR THAT. IT SOUNDS GOOD, BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE IS A DESIRE TO HEAR ABOUT IF IT'S A POSSIBILITY FOR A BLANKET. YES. IF WE ASK THE COUNCIL ABOUT LIMITED HOURS, I DIDN'T FEEL I HAD IT, BUT I'LL ASK, IS THERE AN APPETITE TO LIMIT HOURS? RAISE YOUR HAND IF YOU'RE WILLING. YEAH, YEAH, BUSINESS SIDE. SO A QUESTION WHAT IS IN THE CODE ON. WE TALKED ABOUT THE CERTIFICATION THAT YOU KNOW YOU LIST ALL OF YOUR CERTIFIED MASSAGE THERAPISTS IN THE STATE CODE NOW OKAY. SO WE'RE WE CAN THAT'S SOMETHING WE CAN DO OKAY. YEAH. AND WE DID HAVE CONSENSUS TO MIRROR STATE CODE. SO GOOD GOOD.

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU LADIES SO MUCH FOR PARTICIPATING WITH US. NEXT ON OUR AGENDA THAT I HAVE A

[d. Discussion of Regulations on Retail Sales of Pets by Commercial Breeders]

YEAH. GO AHEAD. I WAS I WAS JUST SAYING THAT THE BIG THING WE WERE LOOKING AT HERE, OBVIOUSLY THIS IS WE JUST WANT TO SEE A DIRECTION THAT COUNCIL WOULD FEEL BEST GOING BECAUSE IT DOES GO INTO A LOT OF ELEMENTS, ONE BEING A LAND USE THING AND ONE REALLY BEING A BUSINESS LICENSE THING. AND THOSE ARE THOSE ARE THE TWO BIG THINGS. AND THEY WOULD HAVE A DIRECT CORRELATION ON A CERTAIN BUSINESS. ONE OF THEM, YOU KNOW, THE BUSINESS LICENSE THAT COULD SHUT DOWN A CERTAIN BUSINESS. AND WE DO NOT WANT TO LOOK LIKE WE'RE TARGETING A BUSINESS. THE GOAL THAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE IS IN WEST JORDAN. WE'RE TRYING TO GET FREE OF PUPPY MILL, ANIMAL CRUELTY TYPE SITUATIONS AND BUSINESSES THAT DO THAT. AND WE WOULD LIKE TO PUT IN SOMETHING THAT REALLY SETS THAT UP. A AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I HAD ALL MY NOTES WRITTEN DOWN AND THEN LEFT WORK WITH ALL MY NOTES THERE. BUT YEAH, I KNOW, BUT BUT THE WHAT'S THE WORD? I'M LOOKING FOR THE CERTIFICATE OF NO, NOT OCCUPANCY, CERTIFICATE OF ORIGIN. WHERE YOU GOT IT. YEAH.

IT'S NOT REALLY ORIGIN IN THE ANIMAL THING, BUT THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG THINGS THAT THEY'RE WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS BUSINESSES THAT ARE, ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN CONCERNED THAT THE ANIMALS HAVE COME FROM VARIOUS PLACES THAT ARE NOT A, YOU KNOW, A LICENSE, THAT THEY'RE NOT WHAT THEY SAY THEY ARE. THEY'RE NOT COMING WITH ANY OF THE VETERINARIAN TYPE, YOU KNOW, FOLLOW UP TO LET US KNOW WHAT IS THERE. AND SO WE'RE WE'RE LOOKING AT TRYING TO ADOPT SOME LAWS. NOW, SANDI, OUR CODE IN THERE, SANDI HAS ONE THAT MIRRORS SOMEWHAT CLOSE TO SALT LAKE CITY, WHERE YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SELL ANIMALS IN THE DOG. CAT RABBIT VARIETY IN A RETAIL SPACE, UNLESS THEY ARE ANIMALS THAT HAVE COME FROM A RESCUE OR OTHER SHELTER TYPE ORGANIZATION. AND THAT HAS BEEN THEIR KIND OF COVERAGE OF THIS. THIS DOESN'T NECESSARILY STOP PEOPLE WHO ARE SELLING A DOG IN THE, YOU KNOW, ON THE GRASS OR IN THE PARKING LOT. BUT YEAH, I MEAN, WHERE WE SEE THAT QUITE FREELY, BUT THE IDEA IS TO JUST SET UP THAT THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE DON'T WANT STORES, RETAIL, PLACES THAT ARE GOING TO SELL, ANIMALS THAT ARE SET UP TO COME FROM PUPPY MILLS AND ARE SET UP IN. YEAH. IT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD. WE WANT THAT HUMANE, TRANSPARENT SOURCING FOR ANIMALS SOLD WITHIN OUR CITY. SIMPLE DOCUMENTATION, DOCUMENTATION THAT OUR STAFF CAN

[01:40:03]

YOU KNOW, YOU WEREN'T SOLD A THIS IS A LEGITIMATE PAPER ANIMAL. YOU WEREN'T SOLD THAT YOU WERE SOLD. IT'S A RESCUE. AND HERE'S HERE'S THE INTERESTING THING. SALT LAKE CITY IN SANDY'S ORDINANCE HAS GOT A LOOPHOLE ABOUT AS WIDE AS ABOUT AS WIDE AS THE SALT LAKE VALLEY, BECAUSE THEIR ORDINANCE SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT THE BREEDER, THE WHATEVER THE BREEDER IS CAN SELL IT FROM THEIR OWN LICENSED PREMISES AND IT CAN THEY CAN TRANSFER, SELL WHATEVER FROM THEIR FROM THEIR PLACE OF BUSINESS. SO OKAY, I OWN A PET STORE. I DRIVE TO THE BREEDER'S HOUSE WHO MAYBE A PUPPY MILL OR MAY NOT. I BOUGHT THEM, I JUST BOUGHT THEM LEGITIMATELY. THAT YOU KNOW, AND THEN WE SAID, SANDY SALT LAKE, YOU CAN'T HAVE AN ANIMAL SOLD IN A RETAIL. SO YOUR YOUR PET STORE WOULD HAVE TO BE OUTSIDE OF SANDY OR SOMETHING. I DON'T KNOW, RETAIL, NO RETAIL SALE OF CATS, DOGS, RABBITS UNLESS SOURCED FROM SHELTERS UNLESS SOURCED. SO IF THEY GOT IF THEY GOT THE PET STORE CAN SELL THEM. THEY JUST GET THEM FROM THE SHELTER. I HAVE A QUESTION, BUT THEY ALSO REQUIRE A CERTIFICATE OF SOURCE AND IT HAS TO BE ON SITE WITH THAT. I HAVE A QUESTION FOR BOB. I WOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS BECAUSE COULD COULD IT POTENTIALLY PROTECT THE PUPPY STORE BY PROHIBITING ANY COMPETITION? RIGHT. IT COULD MAKE THEM A MONOPOLY. AND THAT'S WHY IF THEY'RE IF THEY ARE A LEGITIMATE BUSINESS, IF THEY ARE ACTUALLY SOURCING PUPPY MILL PUPPIES, IT'S THIS IS NOT GOING TO STOP THEM FROM DOING SO. BUT IT COULD PREVENT A LEGITIMATE PUPPY STORE FROM OPENING IF THERE'S A NEXT DOOR TO THEM. AND YOU'RE RIGHT. AND IF THERE'S A LICENSED BREEDER THAT LET'S LET'S JUST HYPOTHETICALLY SAY THERE'S A LICENSED BREEDER AND THEY'RE LICENSED AND THEY THEY MEET ALL THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURAL RULES TO BE A LICENSED BREEDER. WE'RE SAYING YOU CAN'T SELL THOSE BECAUSE, OH, YOU DIDN'T GET THEM FROM YOU. THEY CAN SELL THEM ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE CITY, BUT THEY CAN'T SELL THEM OUT OF A PET STORE BECAUSE PET STORES CAN ONLY SELL RESCUED ANIMALS.

NO, THE GOAL IS TO STOP THE MILL SOURCE RETAIL PIPELINES, NOT TO PICK A WINNER, NOT TO. WE CAN GRANDFATHER THE CURRENT STORY, BUT PROHIBIT THE NEW RETAIL SALES OF SOURCED ANIMALS GOING FORWARD, OR WE APPLY THESE STANDARDS UNIFORMLY. SO WE'RE NOT PICKING AND CHOOSING. WE'RE JUST SAYING, HEY, FROM HERE ON OUT, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THESE ARE NOT COMING FROM PUPPY MILLS, AND WE NEED PAPERWORK SAYING THEY'RE NOT COMING FROM WHAT'S THE DEFINITION OF PUPPY MILL? IF THEY'RE A LICENSED BREEDER, THEY'RE A LICENSED BREEDER. AND THEY'RE LEGITIMATE BUSINESS THAT BREEDS THE DOG. I THINK WHAT AMY MOTTO WOULD DEFINE AS A PUPPY MILL BACK, BACK IN KENTUCKY, I THINK SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT THOSE ARE ACTUALLY LEGITIMATE LICENSED BREEDING FARMS. BUT BUT SHE WOULD DEFINE IT AS A PUPPY MILL. SO I THINK WE NEED MORE TIME FOR THIS. SO WHAT WE NEED

[01:45:06]

SHE'S PROVIDED, THAT SHE PROVIDED A DRAFT ORDINANCE. IT'S ME. WHAT? MY GOAL IS TO HAVE AN ORDINANCE THAT ALLOWS. OKAY, BUT I'M OUT OF TIME. WE HAVE TO GET IN THERE BY SIX. SO DO I HAVE FOUR OR MORE? RAISE YOUR HAND, I HAVE THREE. I DON'T HAVE FOUR THAT WANT TO BRING IT BACK. THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T FIND. THE CHAIR.

* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.