[CALL TO ORDER] [00:00:03] GOOD AFTERNOON. WELCOME TO THE WEST JORDAN CITY COUNCIL COMMITTEE. OF THE WHOLE, IT IS 447. AND BEFORE WE WENT ON A TOUR OF THE MUSEUM. THANK YOU, ROBBIE AND THE VOLUNTEERS THAT WERE THERE TO HELP. TELL US ABOUT THE MUSEUM AND THE THINGS THAT IT HAS TO OFFER. THE FIRST ITEM ON OUR AGENDA IS DISCUSSION OF THE TRANSPORTATION IMPACT FEE STUDY. [b. Discussion of the Transportation Impact Fee Study] IF YOU RECALL, WE HAD THEM HERE ONCE BEFORE. AND WE HAVE COUNCIL MEMBER BLOOM, COUNCIL MEMBER JACOB, COUNCIL MEMBER VICE CHAIR COUNCIL MEMBER, CHAIR WHITELOCK, COUNCIL MEMBER LAM AND COUNCIL MEMBER GREEN AND HE'S ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DOOR AND COUNCIL MEMBER SHELTON AS WELL AS MANY STAFF MEMBERS. COUNCIL MEMBER. YEAH. ALRIGHT, THANKS. AND IT LOOKS LIKE MYSTIQUE WANTS TO LEAD. WE ALSO HAVE FRED PHILPOTT HERE. BUT TAKE IT AWAY, DENISE. THANK YOU. SO WE'RE GOING TO THIS PRESENTATION THAT I PUT TOGETHER IS A COMBINATION OF INFORMATION PROVIDED BY FRED AND LRB PUBLIC FINANCE AS WELL AS SOME CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WHERE WE'VE GONE AS STAFF. RECOMMENDATIONS MOVING FORWARD. SO JUST A LITTLE REMINDER THAT WHAT UTAH STATE CODE REQUIRES, THERE'S TWO SEPARATE STUDIES. THEY'RE DONE AT INDEPENDENT CONSULTANTS. ONE OF THEM IS MORE OF AN ENGINEERING SIDE PROJECT MANAGEMENT PROJECTS. SO IT'S THE IF THAT'S THE IMPACT FOR FACILITIES PLAN. IT IDENTIFIES THE DEMAND ON THE CITY FROM NEW DEVELOPMENT AND THEN THE PROJECTS THAT ARE RESULTING FROM THAT DEMAND. SO IT SAYS THESE ARE THE ROADS THAT ARE NEEDED. THIS IS THE WIDTH OF THE ROAD THAT IS NEEDED. THIS IS HOW LONG IT IS. THAT KIND OF THING. OKAY. AND THEN EXCUSE ME. AFTER THAT'S COMPLETED, THAT'S FIRST. RIGHT. WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE DEMAND FROM NEW DEVELOPMENT AND THEN WHAT PROJECTS ARE NEEDED. AND THEN THE NEXT STEP THE GREEN TEAM, WHICH YOU CAN TELL WE'RE ALL IN GREEN TODAY. THE MONEY AND FINANCE TEAM WE TAKE THOSE PROJECTS AND WE APPLY DOLLARS TO THAT, AND THEN WE APPLY SOME METHODOLOGY TO THAT TO COME UP WITH AN IMPACT FEE RECOMMENDATION FOR YOU AS THE COUNCIL. SO THAT'S THE IFA. SO WE'RE FIGURING OUT WHAT ARE THE COST OF THOSE PROJECTS THAT WERE LISTED. AND THEN WHAT ARE THE FINANCING SOURCES FOR THOSE PROJECTS. AND FINANCING SOURCES COULD BE LOTS OF PLACES. WE COULD SAY WE'RE GOING TO WORK ON LEGISLATIVE FUNDING AS A PORTION OF THE PROJECT COST. WE'RE GOING TO USE IMPACT FEES, WE'RE GOING TO USE GENERAL FUND CONTRIBUTIONS. WE'RE GOING TO USE WHATEVER. RIGHT. THERE'S LOTS OF FINANCING SOURCES, BUT WE ARE BONDING. THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER ONE THAT WE IDENTIFY UPFRONT THAT HOW DO WE INTEND TO FINANCE THOSE PROJECTS MOVING FORWARD? THE WINDOW FOR THESE PROJECTS, IT'S A FIVE YEAR WINDOW, RIGHT? YES. SIX YEARS TO EXPAND, SIX YEARS ALL THE WAY TO SPEND THE FUNDS. BUT WE LOOK AT THAT TIME PERIOD AS WELL. OKAY. SO THOSE ARE THE TWO. THIS WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BEFORE THIS IS THE COST ANALYSIS IN OUR RECOMMENDATION. SO THERE'S SOME DIFFERENT COMPONENTS TO HOW THE FEE IS CALCULATED. ONE OF THEM IS CALLED BUY IN. THAT MEANS THAT A PORTION OF THE SYSTEM THAT WE'VE ALREADY BUILT WOULD SUPPORT DEVELOPMENTS. WE'VE OVERBUILT CERTAIN AREAS OF ROADS OR WIDTH OF ROADS OR ROADS IN CERTAIN AREAS THAT WE COULD HAVE A COST RECOVERY FROM FUTURE DEVELOPMENT ON. THAT'S A BUY IN. SO YOU CAN SEE THE COST OF OUR EXISTING ROADS IS ABOUT $115.4 MILLION. THAT'S BASED ON OUR DEPRECIATION SCHEDULES AND VALUES AND 12% OF THAT INFRASTRUCTURE COULD BE RECOVERED BY IMPACTS, RECOVERY FROM NEW DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO BE ON OUR EXISTING ROADS. THAT WOULD BRING IN ANOTHER $15 MILLION OF REVENUE FROM NEW DEVELOPMENT, AND IT WOULD ADD 139 OR $140 PER TRIP FOR THE DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY IN AN IMPACT FEE. OUR RECOMMENDATION FOR YOU IS TO STRIP THAT PIECE OUT, AND WE'LL SHOW YOU WHAT THE EFFECT OF THAT WILL BE. BUT THAT'S OUR RECOMMENDATION. GOING FORWARD, BY IN TENDS TO BE A LITTLE MORE CONTROVERSIAL TO NEW DEVELOPMENT, NEW DEVELOPMENT SEES NEW DEVELOPMENT AS NEW THINGS. THAT IS GOING TO GO IN AFTER THE DEVELOPMENT, EXCEPT FOR WATER AND SEWER GOES IN A LITTLE BEFORE. BUT THEY DON'T REALLY LOVE THE BUY IN COMPONENT, AND IT TENDS TO GET YOU A LITTLE MORE SCRUTINY ON THE LEGISLATIVE SIDE, WHICH IS WHY OUR RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE TO TAKE THAT OUT. FUTURE ROADS THAT ARE NEEDED ARE ABOUT $44 MILLION, AND THOSE ARE JUST THE ROADS IN THE NEXT SIX YEARS. [00:05:06] SO IT'S NOT LIKE ROADS THAT WE'RE PREDICTING OUT IN TEN YEARS. 52% OF THAT COST IS TO NEW DEVELOPMENT, WHICH MEANS THAT WE HAVE AN EXISTING DEFICIENCY THERE AS WELL. AND THAT WOULD BE $23.1 MILLION OR $217 PER TRIP. FUTURE INTERSECTIONS. SO CHANGES OF INTERSECTIONS, NEW INTERSECTIONS DEVELOPMENT OF INTERSECTIONS. THAT'S $31 MILLION, 68% OF NEW DEVELOPMENT. AGAIN, BRINGING IT OVER TO THE IMPACT FEE AND THEN STUDY UPDATES. SO TYPICALLY WE'D HAVE TO DO AT LEAST ONE OR 2 OR 3. WE'D HAVE TO DO A MASTER PLAN UPDATE. WE HAVE TO DO IF WE HAVE TO DO AN IFA AGAIN DURING THIS TIME PERIOD SO THAT WE'RE READY FOR THE NEXT ROUND. AND THAT'S 100% IMPACT FEE RECOVERABLE. OKAY. HOLD ON. JUST A QUESTION ON THAT. 44 MILLION IS FOR FUTURE ROADS WHAT ABOUT WHAT WHAT FUND OR WHAT LINE ON THAT SLIDE COVERS THE EXPANSION OF CURRENT ROADS TO HANDLE THE NEW GROWTH IMPACT? IS THAT A FUTURE ROAD OR IS THAT AN EXISTING ROAD BY IN IT WOULD BE AN EXISTING ROAD BY IN FOR PLACES LIKE 13TH WEST RIGHT 1300 WEST DOESN'T NEED A TON OF IT, WOULD JUST NEED AN EXTRA LANE OR AN EXTRA SIDEWALK. THAT WOULD BE THE BUYING COMPONENT. SEE, I, I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THE LEGISLATURE WOULD PUT THAT UNDER SCRUTINY. I MEAN, IT'S LIKE WE LOOK AT 7800 SOUTH BETWEEN SMITHS AND MOUNTAIN VIEW. WE HAD TO WIDEN THAT RIGHT? IF THAT'S AN EXISTING BUY IN. THAT'S NONSENSE THAT WE CAN'T USE IMPACT FEES BECAUSE WE BUILD HOUSES OUT THERE, AND WE HAD TO WIDEN THE ROAD BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT THOSE HOUSES TO GET THEM THERE. SO IT REALLY DOES DEPEND ON THE ROAD. 7800 SOUTH, I WILL TELL YOU, IS PART OF A NEW ROAD, A FUTURE ROAD, BECAUSE IT WASN'T BUILT TO THE FULL CAPACITY ORIGINALLY. WE HAD TO ADD LANES, WHEREAS WIDENING IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT. 1300 WEST. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ADDING LANES AND WIDENING THAT YOU'RE ADDING LANES EITHER WAY. SO PLEASE. YES. OKAY, SO YOU'RE RIGHT. WHAT DENISE IS DESCRIBING IS A POTENTIAL SOLUTION. SO IN OUR LAST DISCUSSION, AS WE PRESENTED, THE IF AND IF THERE WERE SOME CONCERNS RELATIVE TO THE SIZE OF THE FEE AND WHAT WAS BEING PROPOSED ON NEW DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITY. AND THERE WAS A REQUEST FOR RECOMMENDATIONS ON WHERE YOU COULD LOOK TO MODIFY THE RECOMMENDED FEE. SO WHAT DENISE IS DESCRIBING IS, IS JUSTIFIABLE IN THE INCLUSION OF THE FEE ITSELF. SO WE'RE NOT ACTUALLY CHANGING THE IFA, THE DOCUMENT AND SAYING, HEY, WE'RE GOING TO PULL THAT OUT OF THE ANALYSIS, BUT THAT IS AN AREA THAT YOU COULD CONSIDER NOT RECOUPING IN THE CALCULATION OF FEE AND FOCUSING ON NEW INFRASTRUCTURE. AND THAT'S WHAT THIS TABLE IS SUGGESTING, IS IF WE FOCUS OUR IMPACT FEE ON THE CONSTRUCTION OF NEW INFRASTRUCTURE, WHICH INCLUDES NEW ROADWAYS AS WELL AS AN EXPANSION TO EXISTING ROADWAYS TO ADD CAPACITY. SO THE IDEA OF 7800 SOUTH, THERE'S A PROJECT IN THERE TO WIDEN THAT ROAD. SO WE'RE TAKING THE EXISTING AND EXPANDING THAT THAT IS IMPACT FEE ELIGIBLE. THAT BUY IN COMPONENT IS IS A PORTION OF THE FEE THAT'S PAYING YOU BACK FOR INVESTMENT YOU'VE MADE IN THE PAST. SO IT DOESN'T REPRESENT A COST NECESSARILY THAT YOU WILL INCUR RIGHT. IN THE FUTURE. YOU'VE ALREADY INCURRED THAT. CORRECT. AND SO THE BUY IN MONEY IS MORE OF A RECOUPING OF MONEY THAT WE'VE ALREADY SPENT. WHEREAS FUTURE ROADS, IF WE WERE IF, FOR EXAMPLE, IF WE HAVE TO EXPAND 72 SOUTH BETWEEN 13TH WEST AND REDWOOD ROAD BECAUSE OF SOME MAJOR DEVELOPMENT, THEN THAT WOULD BE BECAUSE WE'RE ADDING A LANE, WE'RE ADDING CAPACITY. THAT'S NOT A BUY IN. THAT'S A FUTURE ROAD BECAUSE WE'RE DEALING WITH THE IMPACTS OF THE WIDENING. CORRECT. YEAH. BUT YOU SEE A REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1300 WEST PROJECT AND THE 7800 SOUTH WIDENING PROJECT. WE'RE ADDING NEW ASPHALT, WE'RE ADDING A LANE. THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE TWO PROJECTS. 13 WEST, WE'RE ADDING AN ASPHALT, WE'RE ADDING A LANE. BUT 13 WEST ISN'T NECESSARILY DRIVEN BY DEVELOPMENT. IT ISN'T. YEAH. SO IT'S NOT REALLY AN IMPACT FEE THING. YEAH. AND THE IFHP WILL WILL SPELL THAT OUT. IT WILL SHOW WHAT IS ADDING CAPACITY, WHAT IS NOT. [00:10:04] AND THAT'S THE BASIS FOR THE 23 MILLION AND THE 21 MILLION. YEAH. SO THE RECOMMENDATION HERE IS TO PRESERVE THAT WITHIN THE SCENARIO THAT'S BEING PRESENTED AND SHOWING YOU AN AREA THAT YOU COULD COMPROMISE IF THE DESIRE IS TO CREATE MAYBE A MORE ECONOMICAL IMPACT. SO MAYBE A BETTER WAY TO SAY IT, AN EXISTING ROAD BY AND TELL ME IF I'M UNDERSTANDING IT IS A ROAD THAT'S ALREADY THERE. YOU'RE PUTTING NEW DEVELOPMENT OUT AT THE END OF IT. SO THE TRAFFIC ON THAT ROAD THAT'S ALREADY THERE WILL INCREASE. RIGHT. AND THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO OFFSET WITH THAT IMPACT FEE. NOT ANY NEW CAPACITY, NOT ANY CHANGES TO THAT ROAD, JUST THE FACT THAT THERE'S MORE CARS ON IT. YEAH, IT'S GOING TO WEAR DOWN FASTER. IT'S GOING TO NEED REPLACEMENT WHATEVER, WHATEVER, WHATEVER. BUT IF YOU'RE EXPANDING CAPACITY, YOU'RE WIDENING THE ROAD, YOU'RE ADDING A LANE, YOU'RE ADDING BIKE LANES, YOU'RE ADDING WHATEVER. BECAUSE THAT IMPACT IS GOING IN. YOU NEED MORE CAPACITY. THAT'S FUTURE ROADS. YEAH. PERFECT EXPLANATION. SO FUTURE ROADS IS MORE CAPACITY, RIGHT. YEAH. EXISTING ROADS IS YOU'RE BUYING YOU'RE WEARING DOWN. IS YOUR DEPRECIATION ON THE ROAD BECAUSE YOU'RE ALREADY BUILD IT AND YOU'RE JUST WEARING IT OUT FASTER. YEAH I MEAN YOU YOU HAVE CAPACITY IN YOUR EXISTING SYSTEM. SO YOU'VE BUILT A NETWORK THAT HAS CAPACITY. BUT YOU HAVE TO ADD TO THAT NETWORK AND BUY IN IS THE EXISTING NETWORK THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE CAPACITY IN THE FUTURE FACILITY, THE FUTURE ROADS AND INTERSECTIONS IS HOW DO WE EXPAND THAT SYSTEM TO HANDLE THE DEMAND THAT WE'RE ANTICIPATING. RIGHT. ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT. SO THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION COST INDEX HAS INCREASED BY OVER 92% BETWEEN 2016 AND 2025. WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT? OUR LAST STUDY WAS 2016. SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE SEEING SUCH A DRAMATIC INCREASE IN OUR IMPACT FEE RECOMMENDATION TO YOU, BECAUSE THAT MUCH INFLATION HAS OCCURRED JUST ON THAT CONSTRUCTION SITE, NOT TO MENTION THE COST OF LAND, ETC.. LET ME ASK TWICE AS MUCH TO BUILD A ROAD. LET ME ASK THIS QUESTION. SO. THE IMPACT FEE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, IF IT'S GOING TO GO TO FUTURE ROADS AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS. SO LET'S LET'S JUST HYPOTHETICALLY SAY THAT SOMEBODY DECIDES THEY WANT TO BUILD HOUSES ACROSS THE STREET. WE ALREADY HAVE THE CAPACITY THERE AND EVERYTHING. ARE THEY STILL GETTING CHARGED THE IMPACT FEE FOR THE INCREASED CAPACITY OF ROADS AT 90 SOUTH? AND YOU WANT 11? IMPACT FEES ARE NOT COLLECTED IN AN AREA. THEY'RE COLLECTED ON CITYWIDE SYSTEM. OKAY. ALRIGHT. SO THIS IS WHAT YOU SAW BEFORE. THIS WAS THE LIST OF ALL THE RECOMMENDED CATEGORIES. IT WAS A LOT OF DATA. WHAT I DID WAS I GRAYED OUT THE ONES THAT WE'RE GOING TO CONSOLIDATE DOWN, BRING IT DOWN TO SOMETHING THAT'S A LITTLE MORE READABLE FOR US ALL. AND EASIER TO APPLY. SO TAKING OUT SOME OF THE THINGS WHERE WE SAW, RIGHT, WHERE WE SAW DAYCARE, A DAYCARE CENTER, BECAUSE OF THE TRIP GENERATION OF A DAYCARE CENTER, THE IMPACT FEE IS PRETTY PRETTY LARGE, QUITE HONESTLY, BECAUSE THIS IS PER THOUSAND SQUARE FEET. SO IF YOU HAD A 4000 SQUARE FOOT DAYCARE CENTER, PROBABLY ALMOST PUT IT OUT OF BEING ABLE TO BE BUILT AT $50,000 JUST FOR THE ROAD IMPACT FEE. BECAUSE 14 TIMES FOUR. RIGHT. AND SO WHAT WE'RE RECOMMENDING IS TO USE THE BLUE CATEGORIES THAT LOOK LIKE THIS NOW. AND WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SEE IS THE LAND USE GROUP, THE LAND USE CATEGORY, HOW WE'RE MEASURING IT. OUR CURRENT FEE. SO YOU CAN SEE LIGHT INDUSTRIAL RIGHT NOW IS $392 PER SQUARE FOOT. THE PROPOSED FEE WHEN WE TAKE THE BUYOUT, BUY IN, OUT RIGHT WHERE I STRUCK THAT ONE LINE IS $2,038 PER THOUSAND SQUARE FEET. THE STUDY FEE, WHICH IS THE MAXIMUM FEE WE'RE ALLOWED TO CHARGE, WHICH INCLUDES THE BUY IN COMPONENT, IS $2,719. SO YOU CAN SEE WE CONSOLIDATED THIS LIST DOWN QUITE CONSIDERABLY. AND THEN YOU CAN SEE THAT THE STEADY FEE VERSUS THE PROPOSED FEE TAKING OUT THAT BUY IN COMPONENT. OKAY. A LITTLE BIT CONFUSED. FOR EACH ONE SQUARE FOOT OF THOUSAND SQUARE FEET. OH, YEAH. REFERENCES ON THE BOTTOM. AT THE BOTTOM, SQUARE FOOT PER 1000FT². I'M STILL NOT COMFORTABLE THAT SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS. [00:15:03] SO WE'RE GOING TO GIVE YOU EXAMPLES. SO THAT'LL BE HELPFUL. I KNOW, BUT WHEN WE START TALKING ABOUT INCREASING OUR RESTAURANTS IMPACT FEE BY 845%, WILL WE GET RESTAURANTS. DOES IT IMPACT EXISTING RESTAURANTS? WELL IT'S NOT GOING TO. WILL WE GET FUTURE RESTAURANTS? THE QUESTION IS IS THAT GOING TO KEEP A FUTURE RESTAURANT. THERE GOES YOUR STEAK HOUSE AWAY. WELL, I THINK THAT DEPENDS ON WHAT NEIGHBORING CITIES ARE DOING. IF THEIRS ARE SAME AS OURS, THEN THAT IMPACT IS NOT GOING TO MATTER, RIGHT? THEY'RE NOT GOING TO LOOK AT IT AND SAY YOU RAISED IT BY 845%. WE'RE NOT COMING THERE. NOW. THEY'RE GOING TO SAY, WAIT A SECOND. SOUTH JORDAN SAYS TAYLORSVILLE IS, MIDVALE IS. AND IF WE'RE CLOSE TO THEIRS, BUT IF WE'RE NOT CLOSE TO THEIRS, AND THAT KILLS US. YEAH, BUT I THINK THAT'S THE BETTER QUESTION IS WHERE DO WE LINE UP WITH OUR NEIGHBORING CITIES? WE HAVE A CHART FOR YOU HERE, TOO. BUT MY QUESTION ON THIS IS WE HAD A LOT OF INDIVIDUAL THINGS LISTED AND NOW IT'S DOWN, WHICH IS GREAT. BUT IF I AM A DAYCARE, WHO'S GOING TO TELL ME WHERE I PLUG IN NOW? YOU'RE A CHURCH. WE WE WOULD YEAH WE WOULD. WE CAN EXPAND THIS LAND USE CATEGORIES. I PRETTY MUCH KEPT THEM THE SAME SO THAT YOU COULD KIND OF SEE WHAT IT WENT TO FROM ONE TO THE OTHER. BUT WE COULD CALL THAT CATEGORY INSTITUTIONAL AND THEN SAY CHURCHES, SCHOOLS AND DAYCARES. OKAY. BECAUSE OTHERWISE WHO WOULD MAKE THAT DECISION? YEAH. YEAH. SCOTT. BUT YES, WE WOULD WE WE WILL DEFINITELY WORK ON THE DEFINITIONS SO THAT THEY'RE MUCH CLEARER AS TO WHERE YOU LAND. OKAY. YEAH. SO WHAT WERE THE BLUE ONES FOR? THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT ARE ON THIS NEXT LIST. SO THEY WERE THE ONES THAT WE CHOSE OUT OF THESE OTHER CATEGORIES. AND REALLY THAT WAS INTENDED TO MATCH WHAT YOUR EXISTING SCHEDULE LOOKS LIKE. SO USING THE BROADER LAND USE GROUP AND A SPECIFIC LAND USE CATEGORY TO DEFINE THAT GROUP. SO THAT IS IN LINE WITH WHAT YOUR CURRENT SCHEDULE IS. SO YOUR YOUR SCHEDULE NOW HOW YOU ASSESS IMPACT FEES TRANSPORTATION IMPACT FEES IS SIMILAR TO THE NEXT SLIDE WHICH HAS THIS THESE MAJOR LAND USE GROUPS. THAT LAND USE CATEGORY IS THE IS ESSENTIALLY THE IT CODE THAT WE'RE USING TO DEFINE THE GROUP. BUT YOU WOULD KEEP YOUR IMPACT FEE SCHEDULE UNDER THAT LAND USE GROUP TO SAY, OKAY, ALL INSTITUTIONAL FALLS UNDER THAT INSTITUTIONAL CATEGORY, MEDICAL UNDER THAT CATEGORY. AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT AT YOUR ORDINANCE WILL ALLOW FOR SPECIFIC CASE BY CASE CONSIDERATION. SO THE DEVELOPER CAN PRESENT INFORMATION AND SAY, HEY, I FEEL LIKE I'M DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU'RE SHOWING HERE, AND HERE'S WHY. AND YOU CAN CONSIDER THAT AND MAKE ADJUSTMENTS. AND YOU WILL HAVE WITHIN THE IMPACT FEE ORDINANCE A NON STANDARD FORMULA TO SAY, HEY, IF WE FEEL A SPECIFIC DEVELOPMENT DOESN'T QUITE FIT WITHIN THIS, LET'S LOOK AT THE FORMULA AND HAVE THAT DIALOG WITH THE DEVELOPER. SO CREATING THE SCHEDULE ALLOWS FOR THE EASE OF ADMINISTRATION OF THE IMPACT FEE, AND TO ALLOW THE DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY TO KNOW HOW THEY'RE GOING TO BE TREATED, BUT IT DOESN'T LIMIT ADDITIONAL DISCUSSION ON ALTERNATIVE CONSIDERATIONS FOR THE IMPACT FEE CALCULATION. TWO QUESTIONS HOW ARE THESE PROPOSED FEES COMPARABLE TO OTHER CITIES? AND WHY IS MULTIFAMILY CHEAPER THAN SINGLE FAMILY? YEAH. SO THAT'S AGAIN ON A PER UNIT BASIS. SO TYPICALLY BASED ON THE IT CODE, THE TRIPS PER UNIT ARE SMALLER FOR MULTIFAMILY. BUT WHEN YOU AMASS THE NUMBER OF RESIDENTIAL UNITS IN THAT LOCATION, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO PAY A MUCH HIGHER FEE FOR, FOR THE ENTIRE MULTIFAMILY UNIT, RIGHT, AS COMPARED TO A SINGLE FAMILY UNIT. YEAH. BUT AGAIN, HOW SORRY I WAS FOCUSED ON THAT LAST QUESTION. HOW IS THIS COMPARABLE TO OTHER CITIES AS FAR AS THE FEES GO? YEAH. SO WE HAVE A LET ME GET TO THAT SLIDE. I JUST HAVE IT FOR RESIDENTIAL. SO WE HAVE A FOR RESIDENTIAL. YEAH. BUT WHICH WOULD TRANSLATE INTO OTHER CATEGORIES, YOU KNOW. SO TYPICALLY THE IT CODE, THE TRIP STATISTIC THAT IS UTILIZED FOR THE DIFFERENT LAND USES IS UNIVERSAL. SO COMMUNITIES WILL USE EITHER TRIPS OR AVERAGE DAILY TRIPS FOR THE CALCULATION OF FEE. AND THOSE ALL COME FROM THE SAME SOURCE. SO I'M GOING TO GO BACK TO EXACTLY WHAT KAITLYN TALKED ABOUT A MINUTE. THIS IS RESIDENTIAL, BUT IF IT'S RESTAURANT RESTAURANTS AREN'T GOING TO COME TO TO TO WEST JORDAN, RESTAURANTS ARE GOING TO GO TO DRAPER, HERRIMAN, SANDY AND SOUTH JORDAN. [00:20:01] YEP. WELL, DO YOU HAVE A CHART LIKE THIS FOR OTHERS? I WOULD ANTICIPATE IT WOULD BE SIMILAR. RIGHT. BECAUSE WE'RE USING THE SAME IT BUT IT COULD BE A SIGNIFICANT RESIDENTIAL VERSUS NONRESIDENTIAL FOR THESE OTHER LAND USES. SO THERE WOULD BE A SIMILAR RELATIONSHIP. SO YOU WOULD BE ON THE HIGHER END IRELAND FOR IMPACT FEES VERSUS THE LOWER END. SO INFRASTRUCTURE ARE THE DEMAND OF INFRASTRUCTURE. BUSINESSES LIKE SANDY DOESN'T NEED A TON OF NEW ROADS, RIGHT? RIGHT. BUT HARRIMAN YEAH. WELL, AND THIS IS JUST THE TRANSPORTATION IMPACT FEE. THIS IS NOT A COMBINED LOOK AT ALL IMPACT FEES OR ALL MARKET FORCES THAT GO INTO WHO'S GOING TO LOCATE WHERE WHAT. IT'S JUST ONE PIECE AND IT'S IT'S REALLY KIND OF DISINGENUOUS OR IT'S REALLY KIND OF MISPLACED TO TO BASE AN ENTIRE HYPOTHETICAL BUSINESS SITUATION ON ONE RELATIVELY SMALL PIECE OF IT'S AFFECTED ALL THE PICTURE WE NEED. WE NEED TO SEE ALL OF THIS STUDY IS JUST THE STUDY ON THE ONE PIECE. YEAH, YEAH. BUT IF ALL OF OUR IMPACT FEES ARE CONSISTENT ACROSS THE BOARD THAT WAY, BUT THEY'RE NOT, WE MAY NOT NEED TO BUILD OUT WATER INFRASTRUCTURE THE SAME WAY WE DO TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE OR WHATEVER. THEY'RE NOT ALL THE SAME. THAT'S WHY THIS IS JUST A TRANSPORTATION IMPACT. WATER'S GOT TO BE BUILT UP JUST THE SAME WAY AS. YES AND NO. WE HAVE INVESTED QUITE CONSIDERABLY IN OUR WATER SYSTEM, AND SO WE DO HAVE ADDITIONAL CAPACITY. I THINK WE HAVE 3 OR 4 MORE TANKS THAT WE ARE. WE MAY BUILD. WE'VE LOOKED AT OTHER IMPACT FEES AND IMPACT FEES STUDIES OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS. IF IT'S BEEN NINE YEARS SINCE WE'VE LOOKED AT TRANSPORTATION IMPACT FEES, THEN THIS IS WHY I ADVOCATE ALL THE TIME FOR TAXES AND EVERYTHING ELSE TO DO SMALL ADJUSTMENTS. WELL, SORT OF. IT'S A TAX WITH ANOTHER NAME ON IT AT THE END OF THE DAY. BUT IT'S ONLY A BUT. IT'S ONLY ON IT'S NOT ON EVERYBODY. IT'S ONLY ON NEW DEVELOPMENT ONLY. IT IS ONE SPECIFIC TIME. IT'S A ONE TIME THING. SO I THINK OF IT AS A FEE. BUT SO SOME SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER HERE. YOU POINTED OUT, HERMAN. AGAIN, I HAVEN'T DONE HERMAN'S STUDY, SO I THIS IS SPECULATIVE, BUT YOU SEE TWO COMMUNITIES THERE, HERMAN AND EAGLE MOUNTAIN, THAT HAVE QUITE A BIT OF GROWTH, AND YOU CAN SEE THEIR IMPACT FEES ARE PRETTY CONSTANT. EAGLE MOUNTAIN IS ACTUALLY GOING THROUGH REVISIONS TO THEIR TRANSPORTATION IMPACT FEE, AND THAT'S LIKELY GOING TO GET MORE EXPENSIVE BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS REQUIRED TO HANDLE THE GROWTH THAT IS ANTICIPATED. THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL INFORMATION TO YOU, RIGHT TO KNOW WHEN THERE'S. SO YEAH, THESE STUDIES SPANISH FORK UPDATES ANNUALLY. DRAPER IS IS PRETTY STALE. SPRINGVILLE IS UPDATED FAIRLY RECENTLY. SO THE LAST FIVE YEARS EAGLE MOUNTAINS IS RECENT, BUT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH AN UPDATE AGAIN BECAUSE OF THE THE NEEDS AS SANDY DOESN'T HAVE A TRANSPORTATION IMPACT FEE. AND THAT'S DUE TO THE NATURE OF THEIR SYSTEM. AND BUILD OUT SOUTH JORDAN. THAT ONE IS UNIQUE BECAUSE THEY HAVE TWO SERVICE AREAS AND THEY HAVE THE DAYBREAK AND ANNEXATION AREA VERSUS THE SOUTH JORDAN PROPER SERVICE AREA. AND WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS THE SOUTH JORDAN PROPER SERVICE AREA, WHERE THE SYSTEM IS PRIMARILY BUILT. ALL THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS REALLY HANDLING GROWTH IS PART OF THE DAYBREAK DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT, WHICH HAS A UNIQUE DYNAMIC THERE. SO YOU'RE NOT ACTUALLY SEEING THE TRUE COST OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND THAT FEE COMPARISON THERE AS WELL. SO WE'RE PROBABLY MORE LIKE SARATOGA SPRINGS OR EAGLE MOUNTAIN ON THIS GRAPH. YES. YEAH. SO THE WAY I VIEW COMMUNITIES IS WHERE YOU'RE AT ON THE DEVELOPMENT CURVE. MY EXPERIENCE WITH WEST JORDAN AND KIND OF MY EYE OPENING EXPERIENCE AS WE WORKED THROUGH THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT STRATEGIC PLAN, THERE IS SO MUCH TO WEST JORDAN AND YOU HAVE SO MUCH GROWTH. IT'S MIND BOGGLING WHEN YOU START TRAVELING WEST. IT'S JUST HUGE. I DID NOT COMPREHEND THAT, BUT THIS CHART HELPS ME UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON WITH WEST JORDAN AND SOME OF THESE OTHER COMMUNITIES, WHICH IS INFRASTRUCTURE IS VERY EXPENSIVE, AND THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT EXPERIENCE HIGH GROWTH HAVE A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE TO BUILD. AND THAT INFRASTRUCTURE IS VERY EXPENSIVE. AND IF YOU'RE FOCUSED ON NEW INFRASTRUCTURE, AND THAT COMPOUNDS THE ISSUE BECAUSE YOU'RE THE IMPACT FEE IS BASED ON TODAY'S DOLLARS OR FUTURE DOLLARS AND FINANCING COSTS TO CONSTRUCT THAT INFRASTRUCTURE VERSUS COMMUNITIES THAT MAY HAVE STILL HAVE GROWTH, BUT THEY'VE BUILT ALL THAT INFRASTRUCTURE. YOU'RE PAYING BACK WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN CONSTRUCTED. THAT'S A LOT CHEAPER THAN BUILDING NEW ROADS. I MEAN, THAT THAT CHART OR THAT STATISTIC RELATIVE TO THAT. [00:25:02] YES. 2015 TO NOW, 100% INCREASE. THAT WAS MY NEXT OR MY PREVIOUS QUESTION I DIDN'T QUITE GET TO FINISH IS IS IT POSSIBLE TO BUILD INTO THE STUDY? WE'RE GOING TO SET THE RATE HERE AND WE'RE GOING TO PROJECT THAT THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE. THIS IS THIS ONLY TAKES IT UP TO TODAY'S DOLLARS RIGHT? WELL WE HAVE INFLATION IN THE CALCULATION OF THE FEE ITSELF. HOW MANY YEARS IN FUTURE INFLATION DO YOU HAVE IN THERE. SO IT'S BASED ON CONSTRUCTION TIMING THROUGH THE TEN YEAR PLANNING HORIZON. SO OKAY MY RECOMMENDATION IS FOR ENTITIES UNDERSTANDING THAT ISSUE BECAUSE IT IS A IT IS A CONCERN THAT CONSTRUCTION INFLATION CAN ECLIPSE WHAT THE ASSUMPTIONS ARE RIGHT. OH ABSOLUTELY. SO IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WHILE WE'RE ESTABLISHING A FEE NOW THAT ENTITIES REGULARLY REVIEW THAT AND LOOK AT THOSE ASSUMPTIONS AND SAY, OKAY, WE'RE STILL COMFORTABLE WITH THE WITH THE TRAJECTORY OF THIS, OR DO WE NEED TO MODIFY THAT. AND THAT'S WHAT I'M THINKING IS, WELL, SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT IF WE SET IT FOR THE PROPOSED PINK BAR HERE, WE'RE SETTING IT IN DOLLARS. THAT FACTOR IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS WORTH OF CONSTRUCTION INFLATION AT SOME ASSUMPTION AND HAVE AVERAGED THAT ACROSS GROWTH. SO SOMEBODY WHO'S BUILDING SOONER IS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE PAYING MORE THAN SOMEBODY WHO BUILDS EIGHT YEARS FROM NOW. ASSUMING WE DON'T DO ANOTHER STUDY BETWEEN NOW AND THEN. YES. I MEAN, WHEN YOU WHEN YOU LOOK AT TIME VALUE OF MONEY, BUT THEY ALSO BENEFIT FROM ALL THAT INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S CONSTRUCTED. YOU KNOW, THEY THEY BENEFIT FROM ESSENTIALLY THE TEN YEARS WORTH OF INFRASTRUCTURE. COULD YOU SET THE FEE FOR TODAY'S DOLLARS AND THEN SAY, WE'RE GOING TO SET THE FEE FOR WHERE WE ARE TODAY, NOT FACTORING IN INFLATION, BUT SAY WE'RE ALSO GOING TO SET IN A BUILT IN FIVE, SIX, 7% A YEAR. YEAH, WE TYPICALLY DON'T. AND THEN WE'LL TAKE A STUDY TO SEE IF WE'RE YEAH. IF WE'RE HITTING THE MARKET THAT THAT COMES UP OFTEN TO HAVE AN INFLATION ESCALATOR ON AN IMPACT FEE, AND MOST ENTITIES SHY AWAY FROM THAT BECAUSE OF THE LITIGIOUS NATURE OF IMPACT FEES AND THEN TRYING TO JUSTIFY THAT PERCENTAGE CHANGE EVERY YEAR WITHOUT AN OFFICIAL STUDY. IT'S PART OF THIS STUDY. YOU'VE ALREADY. YES. YOU'VE ACTUALLY GOT THAT NUMBER ALREADY BAKED INTO THIS. YES. IT'S JUST A MATTER OF PULLING IT OUT AND PUTTING IT INTO A SEPARATE COLUMN YEAR BY YEAR, INSTEAD OF LUMPING IT ALL INTO ONE. YES. I THINK YOU'VE GOT THE SAME LITIGATION. IF WE LUMP IT ALL IN TOGETHER OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS, WE'RE ACTUALLY BRINGING IN MORE MONEY THAN IF WE INDEXED IT. NOT NECESSARILY. IT DEPENDS ON THE ASSUMPTIONS RELATIVE TO ACTUAL COST. BUT INITIALLY WE'RE GOING TO BRING IN MORE MONEY BECAUSE THE COSTS ARE HERE. YEAH. RIGHT. LIKE I SAID, COST GOES UP. LIKE I SAID, IF YOU'RE IF YOU'RE BUILDING TODAY, YOU'RE PAYING MORE. SO WE'RE GOING TO BRING IN MORE MONEY WHILE THE COSTS ARE LOWER. YEAH. MAYBE BECAUSE AGAIN, IT HAS TO DO WITH TIMING OF PROJECTS WHEN WHEN YOU ACTUALLY EXPEND IMPACT FEES, BECAUSE IF YOU ISOLATE IT, A YEAR'S WORTH OF GROWTH WITH A YEAR'S WORTH OF PROJECTS, IF YOU ASSUME IT'S LINEAR. YES. AND HE'S RIGHT, BUT IT MAY NOT. IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE LINEAR. TYPICALLY WHAT I SEE IS THE IMPACT FEE THAT IS SET DOES NOT KEEP PACE WITH INFLATIONARY PRESSURE. AND SO ENTITIES OFTEN WILL LOOK AT IT AND SAY, HEY, THIS IS LIKE TEN YEARS LATER, YOU GOT TO RAISE IT BY 1,000% OR SO. WHILE THERE IS AVERAGING THAT'S HAPPENING, AND THERE MAY BE AN ALTERNATIVE STRATEGY THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO CONSIDER. THERE ARE PROS AND CONS TO THAT. SO WHETHER THAT'S ANNUAL UPDATES VERSUS BEING ABLE TO SIT ON THAT FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS, THE REALITY IS IN MOST CASES, THE IMPACT FEE THAT IS ESTABLISHED, IF NOT UPDATED REGULARLY FALLS BEHIND. SO THOSE ENTITIES THAT DO UPDATE IT REGULARLY CAPTURE THOSE FLUCTUATIONS IN THE ASSUMPTIONS, JUST LIKE PROPERTY TAX. IF YOU DON'T UPDATE IT REGULARLY, YOU'RE FALLING BEHIND. IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY TEN YEARS IS NOT OFTEN ENOUGH. CORRECT? SO CLEARLY YOU PROPOSE LIKE EVERY TWO YEARS. SO WE WOULD YOU LIKE US TO PAY YOU FOR A STUDY? IMPACT FEES ARE FUN, BUT NOT THAT FUN. WE TYPICALLY RECOMMEND EVERY 3 TO 5 YEARS FOR A FULL REFRESH, BUT ENTITIES WILL OFTEN DO AN AMENDMENT MORE FREQUENT THAN THAT. SO I'LL GET A REQUEST FOR AN AMENDMENT THE FOLLOWING YEAR. IN SOME INSTANCES WHERE THEY SAY, HEY, THESE WE HAVE THESE COSTS, BUT WE'RE BIDDING THESE OUT AND IT'S 20% HIGHER THAN WHAT WHAT WE HAD ASSUMED. SO LET'S JUST AMEND IT AND GET IN THOSE DOLLARS AND RECALCULATE THE FEE. SO IT'S A QUICK PROCESS. WE'RE NOT REVIEWING ALL OF THE ASSUMPTIONS. WE'RE JUST LOOKING AT SPECIFIC ASSUMPTIONS. SO YOU'RE NOT REVIEWING THE YOU'RE YOU'RE USING THE PROJECTS OUT OF THE IFP THAT YOU'RE APPLYING A NEW COST. CORRECT. AND WE'RE NOT REVIEWING DEMAND OR OPENING UP THE TRAVEL DEMAND MODEL OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. [00:30:06] IT'S JUST SPECIFIC ASSUMPTIONS WE MAY AMEND. AND THAT CAN HAPPEN EVERY YEAR OR EVERY OTHER YEAR. AND THEN YOU YOU TRIGGER THAT FULL REFRESH WITHIN THE FIVE YEAR WINDOW TO REDO THAT THAT PLANNING ANALYSIS. HOW DOES THAT WORK IN LITIGATION. IS THAT IS THAT PRETTY SUCCESSFUL WAY? YES. YES. THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS THAT INFLUENCE CHALLENGES TO IMPACT FEES. AND SOME OF THOSE ARE EXTERNAL FACTORS, THE ECONOMY, FOR EXAMPLE, AND WHAT HAPPENS TO HOME PRICES AND AND ECONOMICS. BUT REGULAR UPDATES TEND TO CREATE MORE DEFENSIBILITY. RIGHT. BECAUSE WE ARE REVIEWING THOSE ASSUMPTIONS AND MAKING CORRECTIONS AS THEY NEED TO. AND IN SOME INSTANCES, I'VE MADE AMENDMENTS TO FEES WHERE THE COST GOES DOWN A LITTLE BIT AND WE GET BETTER ESTIMATES OR THE FINANCING MECHANISM CHANGES WHERE WE HAD ASSUMED BONDING THAT THAT IS REMOVED AND WE ADJUST THE FEE ACCORDINGLY. SO I BELIEVE THAT THE REGULAR UPDATES TO AMENDMENTS AND AN IMPACT FEE ANALYSIS EVERY FIVE YEARS WITHIN THE FIVE YEAR WINDOW CREATES MORE FLEXIBILITY FOR THE CITY. WHAT DO WE SPEND ON THESE STUDIES? I KNOW. YEAH. SO IT'S SO IT'S NOT NOT MUCH RELATIVE TO WHAT? IT'S NOT LIKE A WE'RE NOT DOING A MASTER PLAN. TYPICALLY A MASTER PLAN MAY BE A LITTLE LONGER THAN THAT. AND SO YOU CAN HAVE A COUPLE OF CYCLES OF AN IFSP AND IFA WITHIN THE MASTER PLAN CYCLE. AND, YEAH, I MEAN, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE TOTAL DOLLARS THAT ARE EXPENDED ON TRANSPORTATION WITHIN THE TEN YEAR WINDOW, IT'S IT'S A SLIVER TO UP THEIR FEES. BUT, I MEAN, IT APPLIES TO ALL IMPACT FEES, RIGHT? I MEAN, THIS JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE TRANSPORTATION STUDY. BUT THE THE THEORY OR THE PHILOSOPHY APPLIES ACROSS THE BOARD. AND THE 36 WAS FOR THE FULL STUDY, RIGHT? THAT WAS FOR THE IFBB PORTION. AND SO I WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS TO HAVE YOU COME TO THE UPDATE. YEAH. AMENDMENTS. YEAH. I MEAN, I TYPICALLY CHARGE UNDER 5000 TO DO AN AMENDMENT. SO IT'S IT'S IT'S QUICKER. IT'S IT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD TO JUST AMEND. I WAS WORKING WITH WEST VALLEY CITY ON SOME AMENDMENTS. YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S WHERE WE JUST OPENED UP A COUPLE OF THINGS TO, TO REFRESH. SO HOW DO YOU GET YOUR YOUR NUMBERS ON, ON ALL OF THIS, ON WHAT IT'S GOING? BECAUSE EVERY CITY IS GOING TO BE A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN HOW IT'S TRAFFIC FLOWS AND HOW IT GOES. AND THEN WE'VE GOT RESTAURANTS THAT ARE GOING TO BE IN AREAS THAT AREN'T REALLY GOING TO. THEY'LL BE IN OUR CITY, BUT THEY WON'T REALLY SEE MUCH OF OUR CITY BECAUSE THEY MAY GET OFF OR GO IN AND OUT. SO HOW DO YOU HOW DO YOU COME UP WITH THESE NUMBERS ON ALL THIS? YEAH. SO THE TRAFFIC ENGINEER USES THE TRAVEL DEMAND MODEL TO EVALUATE THE SYSTEM IN TOTAL. SO LOOKING AT THE NATURE OF TRIPS WITHIN THE SYSTEM AND HOW THOSE TRIPS FLOW IN AND OUT OF THE CITY. SO THE ANALYSIS HAS TO CONSIDER WHAT'S CALLED PASS THROUGH TRAFFIC, MEANING TRAFFIC THAT JUST FLOWS THROUGH THE CITY AND DOESN'T STOP ANYWHERE. THAT TRAFFIC IS NOT INCLUDED IN COUNTS FOR ANYTHING. THAT DOESN'T SEEM FAIR. YES. WELL, WHAT THEY DO COUNT FOR SOMETHING, BUT WE DON'T MAKE NEW DEVELOPMENT COVER THAT IMPACT. SO IT IS AN IMPACT ON YOUR SYSTEM. BUT WE CAN'T PUT THAT ON NEW DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITY BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GENERATING THAT DEMAND. WE HAVE TO ISOLATE THE DEMAND WHERE THERE'S AN END POINT OR A STARTING POINT WITHIN THE CITY. SO THAT WOULD SUGGEST, OKAY, THAT IS CAUSED BY OR GENERATED BY YOUR YOUR NEW DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITY. SO THAT TRAVEL DEMAND MODEL IS UTILIZED TO EVALUATE THE SYSTEM AS A WHOLE AND CALCULATE THE PERCENTAGES FOR INFRASTRUCTURE. SO AS YOU LOOK AT ALL THOSE ROADS, WE'VE GOT A LONG LIST OF ROADS THAT NEED TO BE IMPROVED OR EXPANDED UPON. THAT TRAVEL DEMAND MODEL IS USED TO EVALUATE THOSE PERCENTAGES AND DETERMINE THE TOTAL TRIPS SERVED WITHIN THE SYSTEM. AND THAT GETS OUR COST PER TRIP. THEN WE USE THE IT MANUAL, WHICH IS THE INSTITUTE OF TRAFFIC ENGINEERS THAT CALCULATES TRIPS BY LAND USE CATEGORY. AND WE BRING THOSE TWO DATA SETS TOGETHER. BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. THE, THE EXAMPLE YOU SHARED WITH REGARDS TO A RESTAURANT AGAIN, THAT SPEAKS TO THE ELEMENT WITHIN YOUR ORDINANCE THAT ALLOWS FOR A SPECIFIC CONSIDERATION FOR A DEVELOPMENT. SO DEVELOPMENT MAY COME IN AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE THEIR OWN TRAFFIC ENGINEER AND DO THEIR OWN TRANSPORTATION STUDIES. THAT INFORMATION CAN BE USED TO SAY, HEY, THIS IS WHAT WE THINK OUR IMPACT IS ON YOUR SYSTEM. WE KNOW YOU HAVE THIS SCHEDULE, BUT WE THINK OUR IMPACT IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT. AND HERE'S WHY WE THINK WE SHOULD PAY MORE. WHY? YEAH, YEAH, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED. BUT AN EXAMPLE IS I WAS WORKING ON SOUTH JORDAN'S PARK IMPACT FEE. [00:35:01] WE COMPLETED THAT. FAST FORWARD SIX MONTHS. I GET A CALL FROM SOUTH JORDAN. THEY SAY, HEY, WE'VE GOT A 55 PLUS COMMUNITY, AND THEY FEEL LIKE THEIR IMPACT ON PARKS IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT THAN A TYPICAL SINGLE FAMILY OR MULTIFAMILY UNIT. HERE'S WHY. THEY PRESENTED ALL THE DATA I PROVIDED MY $0.02 ON AS KIND OF AN OUTSIDE OPINION, AND THEY CAME TO CONSENSUS ON WHAT WHAT THEY FELT WAS APPROPRIATE. AND IT WAS KIND OF IN BETWEEN, SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN WHAT THE DEVELOPER THOUGHT, WHAT THE SCHEDULE SAID. THEY CAME TO A BUT HOW MUCH OF THAT, LIKE THE SENIOR COMMUNITY THAT SEEMS TO ME WOULD BE OBVIOUS. LESS IMPACT. HOW MUCH OF THAT DO YOU TAKE IN WHEN YOU ACTUALLY PUT YOUR WHOLE PLAN TOGETHER, OR IS IT JUST, WELL, THIS IS THE SAME FOR THIS CITY. IS THIS CITY, IS THIS CITY IS THIS IT IS SPECIFIC TO YOU FOR THE TRAVEL DEMAND MODEL. SO THAT ANALYSIS IS VERY UNIQUE TO YOU, BUT IT IS SYSTEM WIDE. AND THAT'S THE CHALLENGE IS TYPICALLY WHEN WE'RE EVALUATING A SPECIFIC DEVELOPMENT THAT IS VERY SPECIFIC. AND THE TRAVEL DEMAND MODEL OR THIS ANALYSIS DOES NOT CONSIDER THAT SPECIFICITY. THIS IS A LAW OF AVERAGING. IT'S LOOKING AT THE SYSTEM AS A WHOLE AND EVALUATING THOSE TRIPS BY LAND USE CATEGORY. SO IT IS SYSTEM WIDE. SO THAT'S YOUR THAT'S YOUR EXTENT WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THIS IMPACT FEE AS ALL OF WEST JORDAN. SO THERE ARE GOING TO BE SOME NUANCES AS YOU LOOK AT SPECIFIC DEVELOPMENT. GOOD QUESTION. I DON'T KNOW IF IT SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO YOU, BUT DEFER IF YOU NEED TO. HOW LONG HAVE WE BEEN DOING THIS? EVERY TEN YEARS. AND BASED ON THIS INFORMATION, WOULD YOU PROPOSE WE WE UP IT TO EVERY 5 OR 3 YEARS? OH, ABSOLUTELY. I WOULD SAY THAT WE DO A REVIEW EVERY TWO YEARS, HONESTLY. AND THEN WE DO A COMPLETE OVERHAUL EVERY FIVE YEARS. WHICH IS WHY RIGHT NOW WE'RE WORKING ON BECKY'S READY TO TRANSITION TO BACK TO WATER. RIGHT. BECAUSE IT'S BEEN TWO YEARS SINCE WE LOOKED AT WATER. SO THIS WILL JUST BE AN ONGOING CYCLE FOR US, FOR HOW DO WE HOW DO WE CHANGE THAT TEN YEAR CYCLE TO TO BY HAVING DENISE. WE'VE CHANGED IT. YEAH. WE NEED TO CATCH UP, BASICALLY. I HAVE A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES JUST FOR YOU TO KIND OF SEE WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE. WITH THE CURRENT FEE VERSUS THE PROPOSED FEE WITH THE STUDY FEE, THIS IS ALL OF THE IMPACT FEES. SO I THINK THAT'S A LITTLE MORE HELPFUL FOR YOU TO KIND OF UNDERSTAND WHERE A SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL IS. THESE ARE EVERYTHING HAS BEEN UPDATED EXCEPT FOR ROADS. THIS IS THE THIS IS THE LAST OF THE IMPACT. FEES TO BE UPDATED BEFORE WE START ALL OVER AGAIN. AND THIS IS SINGLE FAMILY A QUARTER ACRE, AND THIS IS MULTIFAMILY 8.5 ACRES. YOU'LL SEE THAT THE ONLY CHANGE IS MORE SUBSTANTIAL BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT'S BEEN ALMOST TEN YEARS. RIGHT. BUT YOU CAN SEE HOW THAT WILL IMPACT OVERALL, THE IMPACT FEES THAT ARE CURRENTLY ADOPTED FOR A SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL IS ABOUT 8.4%. SO WHILE WE'RE ADOPTING A FEE THAT'S ALMOST 70% HIGHER THAN WHAT IT WAS IT WILL IMPACT THE IMPACT FEES FOR A SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL BY 8.4% AND MULTIFAMILY RESIDENTIAL BY 6.9%. DO WE HAVE IT FOR COMMERCIAL? DO YOU HAVE DO WE DO? I DID NOT DO THE SAME THING FOR COMMERCIAL BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY COMPONENTS THAT GO INTO THAT. BUT I DID DO THE ROADS FOR YOU. SO I SAID, ALL RIGHT. AN AVERAGE BUILDING OF 4000FT². HOSPITAL AND NURSING HOMES TEND TO BE A LITTLE BIGGER. SO I WENT TO 10,000. AND THEN WHAT IS THE CURRENT RATE FOR THAT SIZE OF A BUSINESS? WHAT WOULD BE THE PROPOSED RATE? AND I JUST KIND OF KEPT THE STUDY RATE OUT. JUST FOR EASE OF LOOKING AT THIS CHART. SO YOU CAN KIND OF SEE WHAT A RESTAURANT THAT WAS, 4000FT² WOULD BE UP TO $102,000 UNDER THIS MODEL. BUT I ALSO WANT TO POINT OUT HERE, YOU CAN SEE UNDER THE CURRENT FEE STRUCTURE, RETAIL AND RESTAURANT ARE THE SAME, SAME FEE. SO ESSENTIALLY YOUR CURRENT SCHEDULE DOES NOT CALL OUT RESTAURANTS SPECIFICALLY. SO IN IN MOST CASES IF YOU CALL OUT AND HAVE AN IT MANUAL, YES, IT'S ALL UNDER A COMMERCIAL UMBRELLA. MOST AGAIN, MOST ENTITIES THAT ESTABLISH A MORE IN-DEPTH FEE SCHEDULE SEE SOME VERY LARGE IMPACT USERS. AND THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT THIS IS POINTING OUT, IS THAT CONVENIENCE STORES, RESTAURANTS FAST FOOD HAVE QUITE A BIT OF TRIPS THAT ARE GENERATED. AND IT'S A MATTER OF, DO YOU THIS RESTAURANT REALLY CREATE THAT MANY MORE TRIPS THAN [00:40:02] A HOSPITAL? BASED ON THE DATA? YES. THE ANSWER IS YES. WHAT PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE GO OUT TO EAT VERSUS GO TO A HOSPITAL? YEAH, EVERYBODY'S GOING OUT TO EAT EVERY DAY. PEOPLE GO IN AND OUT OF HOSPITALS ALL THE TIME. YES, BUT NOT AT THAT SAME VISITING PEOPLE GO OUT TO EAT, THEN GO TO A HOSPITAL IN A GIVEN WEEK TEN TIMES, TEN TIMES AS MUCH. I WOULD SAY I GO TO A RESTAURANT MORE THAN TEN TIMES AS MUCH AS I GO TO A HOSPITAL. YEAH, YEAH, MAYBE. BUT OVERALL POPULATION, I DON'T KNOW. YEAH. I MEAN IT'S IT'S ALSO TO PUT WE NEED TO REMEMBER THIS IS PER 1000FT². SO A HOSPITAL WILL HAVE A LOT OF TRIPS, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE A LOT OF SQUARE FOOTAGE. WHEREAS A RESTAURANT, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A SMALLER FOOTPRINT. AND SO THE TRIPS PER THOUSAND SQUARE FEET ARE DIFFERENT. BUT AGAIN, I WANTED TO POINT OUT, YOU CAN SEE AGAIN, YOUR CURRENT FEE STRUCTURE DOES NOT CALL OUT RESTAURANTS SPECIFICALLY. SO THAT CAN CAN BE A STRATEGY TO CONTINUE MOVING FORWARD. YOU CAN SAY, WELL, WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE A GENERAL RETAIL CATEGORY AND NOT HAVE THAT SPECIFIC LAND USE CALLED OUT. AND LIKE YOU'VE DONE, YOU WOULD YOU LIKE COMBINE THOSE DOLLAR AMOUNTS THEN HOW WOULD YOU HOW WOULD YOU RECOUP THE WOULD YOU INCREASE RETAIL, RECOUP THE RESTAURANT BY INCREASED SALES TAXES ALL THE TIME IS IN THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT WORLD. IS THIS AN ISSUE IN OTHER CITIES? I MEAN, DOES THIS AFFECT THINGS AT ALL? I THINK, WELL, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR MR. DOBBINS. HE'S NOT HERE. BUT I THINK THE POINT EARLIER WAS MADE. WHAT MATTERS MORE? AND FRED, YOU'RE AN EXPERT AT THIS TOO IS COMPARING OTHER CITIES IN YOUR IN YOUR. YEAH, YEAH. CATCHMENT AREA. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE BECAUSE I KNOW IT'D BE NICE TO GET HIS INSIGHT ON THE IMPACT OF THIS DOES TO BRINGING IN THE RETAIL AND THE RESTAURANTS AND, AND BALANCE THAT WITH WHAT WE NEED TO DO, WHICH WE HAVE TO DO AND VERSUS WHAT, LIKE IT'S A FINE LINE THAT I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE DOING THIS RIGHT. I'M LOOKING AT I'M LOOKING AT THAT NUMBER. AND TO FOR A 4000 SQUARE FOOT RESTAURANT, WE'RE ADDING $25 A SQUARE FOOT IN CONSTRUCTION. IT'S ALREADY WIDE. YOU CAN'T WIDEN 13FT. WELL, I GUESS YOU COULD BE PRETTY TIGHT. YOU KNOW, MOST OF THOSE STREETS, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE. AND SO THE IMPACTS TO SALT LAKE CITY ARE SUPER LOW. WEST VALLEY THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE THEY'RE THEY'RE NOT LIKE WE ARE. YOU LOOK AT PROVO. PROVO BUILD OUT. RIGHT? THEY DON'T HAVE A LOT OF VACANT LAND, BUT THE LEGISLATURE DOESN'T LOOK AT, OH, WHO'S GOT THE VACANT LAND AND WHO'S BUILDING? LEGISLATURE SAYS, LET'S LOOK AT THE CHART. OH, THIS DOESN'T LOOK GOOD. AND SO MY QUESTION IS, IS THAT GOING TO HOW HOW IS THAT IS THAT GOING TO IMPACT US. IS THAT GOING TO HURT US WITH THE LEGISLATURE KNOWING THAT WE'RE INCREASING THE AMOUNTS AS MUCH AS WE ARE WHEN IT COMES TO RESIDENTIAL HOUSING AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS. GIVEN THE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT CHART. BECAUSE DRAPER AND I'LL USE DRAPER AS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE. DRAPER'S IMPACT FEES ARE LOW BECAUSE MOST OF THE CITY IS BUILT OUT. HOW DOES DRAPER FIT IN WITH THE POINT OF THE MOUNTAIN AUTHORITY, AND HOW ARE THE IMPACT FEES GOING TO DEAL WITH WITH DRAPER AT POINT OF THE MOUNTAIN AUTHORITY AND WHAT WE DON'T SEE, AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT THE OTHER CITY THAT'S GOING TO BE DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY THIS, THAT'S NOT ON THE LIST IS I DON'T SEE BLUFFDALE. YES. I'LL BET YOU THE POINT OF THE MOUNTAIN TURNS OUT BEING JUST LIKE DAYBREAK. AND THEY'LL BE THEIR OWN LITTLE ENTITY AND IT WON'T BE PART OF REAL BLUFFDALE. SO I JUST WANT TO IT LIKE WE HAVE A COUPLE MORE TOPICS, AT LEAST ONE THAT WE REALLY NEED TO GET TO. SO AGAIN, I'M GOING TO ASK IF MR. PHILPOTT CAN SHARE EVERYTHING THAT HE WANTS TO SHARE. AND THEN MAYBE WE CAN BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GOING TO COME TO CONSENSUS TONIGHT. THAT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS. SO IF IF THERE'S SOMETHING OTHER THAN I THINK THERE IS A VALUE IN HAVING MR. DOBBINS COME AND SPEAK TO IT, I THINK THAT WE PROBABLY NEED A SLIDE THAT SHOWS ALL OF OUR IMPACT. [00:45:08] WELL, YOU GAVE US THAT. MAYBE SHOWING THE COMMERCIAL COMPARISON. YEAH, MAYBE A LITTLE MORE COMMERCIAL COMPARISON. COMMERCIAL COMPARISON WITH THE OTHER, WITH THE OTHER CITIES. YEAH. BUT I REALLY NEED TO WRAP THIS ONE UP TO GET AT LEAST TO THE NEXT ONE ON MY AGENDA. SO ARE THERE QUESTIONS COUNCIL THAT YOU WANT DENISE OR MR. HILBERT TO BRING BACK? OKAY. YOU HAVE QUESTIONS FOR US, MISS STET? NO. I THINK WE CAN HOPEFULLY COME TO A CONSENSUS AND BRING MR. DOBBINS. WE'LL BRING MR. DOBBINS INTO THE NEXT WORK SESSION, FOR SURE. WE'LL GIVE YOU SOME MORE EXAMPLES. THERE, I JUST THE COUNCIL KNOWS THE PROCESS FOLLOWING ONCE THE COUNCIL COMES TO CONSENSUS, THERE'S AT LEAST 90 TO 120 DAY WINDOW BEFORE WE CAN IMPLEMENT ANY FEES. SO I KNOW, JUST KNOW THAT. OKAY. GET YOUR BUILDING PERMIT APPLICATIONS IN. I KNOW THE WORD IS OUT. GET THEM IN YOUR PERMITS. THANK YOU. OVER 9000. YOU'RE MARKETING 6000 BUILDING PERMITS TOMORROW, RIGHT? ALRIGHT. THANKS. NOW. NEXT UP ON OUR AGENDA, WE HAVE AN EXCITING ONE WITH CHRIS TREVINO WHO'S GOING TO BE HERE FOR [c. Discussion of House Bill 48 Wildland Urban Interface (WUI) Modifications and its Impact on the City of West Jordan] HOUSE BILL 48. THE SPONSORS OF THIS BILL ARE SNYDER AND MCHALE. VERY INTERESTING BILL. BUT I'M NOT REALLY A FAN OF THAT. WELL, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. WE APPRECIATE IT. WE UNDERSTAND THE ENROLLMENT. WE'RE WE'RE EXCITED FOR THE ENTHRALLING MESSAGE THAT WE GET TO BRING. THANKS TO THE STATE LEGISLATURES IN 2025, WHAT WE HAD HAPPENED. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I DO REMEMBER BRINGING UP THIS QUESTION A COUPLE YEARS AGO ABOUT THE WHAT THE ISSUES THAT WE WERE GOING TO NOT POTENTIALLY, IF SOMETHING WAS GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT WHEN AND WHAT WE WERE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT. AND SO THEN SEEING THIS AND GOING THROUGH MY HOMEWORK, I WAS LIKE, OH YEAH, IT'S IT'S ENTHRALLING HOMEWORK. I THINK CHIEF AND I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS FOR NOW. I THINK IT THE THE BILL PASSED IN MARCH OF THIS YEAR THROUGH THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION. AND THERE I, I WILL LEAD WITH THIS, THAT THERE ARE MORE QUESTIONS THAN THERE ARE ANSWERS. AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THE THE STATE REPRESENTATIVE SNYDER, HE IS A VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER AND SEEING A NUMBER OF THE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE OVER THE YEARS IN THIS AREA, THE WESTERN US, THERE'S A A LOT OF MONEY TIED UP INTO MITIGATION OF WILDFIRES. AND BECAUSE OF THAT HE PUSHED THIS BILL TO ATTEMPT TO HELP CAPTURE SOME OF THOSE COSTS. PRIOR TO THIS BILL, WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN OUR CITY IS WE'RE IN AN AGREEMENT WITH WE CALL IT THE C.W.S INTRAOPERATIVE WILD CHOIR. YEAH. WILDFIRE AGREEMENT. SO WE'RE SHARING SOME COSTS. THERE'S SOME COST SHARING. OUR COST SHARING AT THAT ON THAT FRONT WAS EDUCATION. IT'S OUR FOLKS TRAINING. IT'S IT'S IT'S THINGS THAT WE WERE GOING TO DO FOR THE MOST PART ANYWAY WHERE THIS BILL LANDS IT, IT REQUIRES US TO DO TWO THINGS BY JANUARY 1ST OF 2026 AND WHAT WE'RE ATTEMPTING OR WHAT THE LAW IS, IS THERE'S TWO THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO CAPTURE. WE HAVE TO ADOPT THE WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE CODE, WHICH WAS PUT TOGETHER IN 2006. SO UTAH, THE STATE OF UTAH HAS A A WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE CODE. HISTORICALLY, WE HAVEN'T TOUCHED IT. AND SOME OF THAT IS BECAUSE OF OUR INTERFACE AREA, WHICH IF YOU LOOK AT THIS MAP, WE'LL WE'LL JUMP TO THIS. THIS IS ACTUALLY FROM THE STATE. SO THE STATE IS PROBABLY SOMEBODY WE WONDERED WE. YEAH. I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WE HAVEN'T QUESTIONED THAT ONE AS WELL. COUNCIL MEMBER WHITELOCK CHAIR. BECAUSE IF, IF YOU LOOK AT THIS MAP AND, AND AND THIS, THIS MAP IS BEING LOOKED AT FACE LADDER AND HAD FUN. WE WERE THINKING SIMILAR THINGS. YES, MA'AM. SO IF YOU IF YOU LOOK AT THIS WITH THE PIXELATION, IT'S, IT'S HARD TO IDENTIFY EXACTLY WHAT IS WHAT. WE AND AND THERE HAVE BEEN YES, A NUMBER OF OF COMMENTS MADE REGARDING THE MAP. [00:50:05] WE'RE AWARE OF THAT. TO BE HONEST, THERE IS A FEEDBACK BEING GIVEN. OH, YES, MA'AM. SO THERE, THERE MOST OF MY HEARTBURN IS WITH THIS, I GUESS. I HATE TO BE A CONSPIRACY THEORIST, BUT I'M SO WORRIED ABOUT PEOPLE'S INSURANCES. YEAH THAT'S FAIR. SO THAT'S THAT'S ONE OF MY I KNOW. YOU'RE TOTALLY FINE. YOU CAN TELL WE MUST HAVE SOME PERSONAL INJURY. PERSONAL INJURY? YEAH. SO THERE'S A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT ARE BEING TALKED ABOUT ON A CHIEF LEVEL. THE CITY MANAGER LEVEL, I BELIEVE THE MAYOR LEVEL AS WELL, WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF UNKNOWNS. AND BECAUSE OF THAT, WE'RE NOW WE HAVE THESE TWO DIRECTIVES, IF YOU WILL, AS WE TRY TO ATTEMPT TO CAPTURE THE WUI MAP. AND WHEN I SAY WUI, IT'S JUST THE WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE. WE SAY WUI BECAUSE WE WE GET TIRED OF IT. IT'S KIND OF FUN, RIGHT? THIS THIS IS THE FUN PART ABOUT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TONIGHT. BUT WITH THAT THERE WAS THAT AND THEN ALSO ADOPTING THE ORDINANCE, THE UTAH STATE ORDINANCE THAT ALREADY EXISTS IN THE STATE. AND THEY'RE SAYING YOU NEED TO ADOPT THE ORDINANCE AND YOU NEED TO ADOPT THE MAP. NOW, THERE IS SOME. THERE'S A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT PLAY INTO IT. WHAT COUNCIL MEMBER BLUM TALKED ABOUT THE INSURANCE RATES. IS THERE A WAY WE CAN NEGOTIATE SOME SORT OF AGREEMENT, A COORDINATION AGREEMENT WITH THE WITH THE STATE, OR IS IT PRETTY MUCH MY HANDS ARE TIED? YES. IF I COULD JUST ADDRESS THAT. JUST SO THAT KIND OF TO PUT SOME OF THE FEARS AT EASE BECAUSE I, I TOTALLY GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. THE TWO THINGS THAT THEY'RE REQUIRING OF US IS THAT WE ADOPT THE WILD LAND CODE AND THAT WE IDENTIFY WE IDENTIFY YOU IDENTIFY AN AREA IN THE CITY THAT YOU WANT TO DESIGNATE AS WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE. THIS IS A MAP THAT THEY HAVE CREATED TO SHOW AREAS THAT THEY THINK ARE OF CONCERN. WE DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW THEIR MAP. OKAY. OKAY. THAT WAS WE CREATE. YEAH. THE CITY CREATES THEIR OWN AREA. WE HAVE TO DEFINE AN AREA. BUT YOU KNOW, THAT RAILROAD TRACK, THAT WEST SIDE ON THE WEST SIDE OF THAT IS WHERE THE ISSUE IS. WE'RE GOOD WITH IT, YOU KNOW? AND TRUTH BE TOLD, THAT WAS OUR FIRST THOUGHT AS WELL. AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS, EVEN THOUGH HERE THE BOUNDARIES OUTLINED AND THERE IS SOME RED. SO WHAT THE RED CAPTURES IS IF YOU LOOK DOWN HERE, IT'S VERY HIGH PROBABILITY. BUT THEN IF YOU LOOK AT THAT'S PARK, THAT'S PARK IS PART OF IT AS WELL. YOU SEE NOW THAT'S PARK IS ORANGE. WHETHER THAT WAS I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THERE'S. YEAH. YEAH. THERE. SO THEY'VE TRIED WITH THE COLORS YOU KNOW THE GRAY, THE SAGE YELLOW, ORANGE AND RED. THEY'RE TRYING TO ESSENTIALLY PUT A SCORE TO IT. AND IT'S EASY, AS COUNCIL MEMBER WHITLOCK MENTIONED, PASTOR, RAILROAD TRACKS, THAT'S WHERE WE'RE CONCERNED. AND THE REALITY IS, IS THAT SOMEBODY ELSE'S LAND. SO THEN IT DOESN'T BRING THAT UP. OUR PROBLEM. BUT WITH THAT, SO TO SPEAK TO COUNCIL MEMBER, BLOOM'S THOUGHT IS COSTS. THERE IS A COST ASSOCIATED ASSOCIATED WITH IT. THERE IS INSURANCE COSTS. IF WE IDENTIFY AS A WUI AREA, THEN BUILDING CHANGES BECAUSE NOW WE HAVE TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, WHAT THEY CALL FIRE HARDENED STRUCTURE THAT HAS AN HOUR, AN HOUR FIRE, RESTRICTIVE PROPERTY ASSOCIATED WITH WHAT IT IS FROM SHINGLES TO SIDING. SO SO I'M GOING TO ASK THE CYNICAL QUESTION, I CAN'T WAIT. SO THE LEGISLATURE WANTS US TO BE BUILD CHEAPER HOUSES AND WE HAVE THE LAND NEAR THE THIS THE, THE PLACE THAT COULD BURN THE MOST. SO THEY WANT US TO INCREASE THE COST OF THE CHEAP OF THE HOUSES THAT THEY WANT TO BE CHEAP. AM I GETTING CLOSE? AND THE COST OF THAT HOME IN FOREVER, RIGHT? I THINK THAT'S A GOOD ASSESSMENT. OKAY. THE IDEA BEHIND THE BILL WAS MITIGATION BECAUSE OF THE RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. YOU KNOW, I THINK WE ALL AGREE THAT MITIGATION IS IMPORTANT. BUT WHEN I LOOK AT THIS MAP AND SOME OF THE PLACES I SEE THE RED, SO GO, I'M GOING TO GO, LET ME SAY SO A COUPLE OF THINGS AS FAR AS COST. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY COST IS THE BIGGEST CONCERN WITH THIS AND THE COST THAT'S GOING TO GO TO THE RESIDENTS. THERE'S A COUPLE OF PARTS OF THIS BILL. ADOPTING THE WILDLAND INTERFACE CODE POTENTIALLY INCREASES THE COST OF CONSTRUCTION IN THAT AREA THAT THAT YOU IDENTIFY OR WE IDENTIFY AS WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE. LIKE HE SAID, IT'S A HARDENED STRUCTURE. THERE'S DIFFERENT THINGS THAT HAVE TO GO INTO THE THE CONSTRUCTION. THAT'S PART OF THE WILDLAND CODE, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ADOPTING. THE OTHER PART OF THIS LAW IS THEY ARE GOING TO ASSESS FEES TO STRUCTURES THAT ARE BUILT IN HIGH RISK AREAS. [00:55:04] THAT THAT'S NOT GOING TO AFFECT US, BECAUSE QUITE HONESTLY, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED HIGH RISK. SANDY AND DRAPER, SOME MILL CREEK, SOME OF THOSE PLACES, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE THAT. AND AND REALLY THE HIGH RISK IS GOING TO BE THOSE ONES THAT THEY'VE GOT THESE THESE STRUCTURE EXPOSURE SCORES THAT THEY'VE DONE. AND WHAT WHAT WE'RE HEARING IT'S NOT OFFICIALLY IN LAW YET, BUT WHAT WE'RE HEARING IS THAT ANYTHING SEVEN CONSIDERED A SEVEN AND ABOVE WOULD BE IN THE HIGH RISK ZONE. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING IN WEST JORDAN. WE HAVE A PROPER THAT YEAH EVEN TERRAIN. SO IF YOU CAPTURE RIGHT HERE, IF YOU'RE LOOKING THIS AREA, THIS DARKER COLOR CAPTURES THAT TERRAIN CAPTURES A LITTLE I BELIEVE ONCE WE TAKE THE STRUCTURE LIKE THE SCORE OUT OF IT, YOU CAN SEE BOUNDARIES. AND THEY'RE FAIRLY UP TO DATE, BUT THEY'RE NOT. RIGHT. SO AS AS THEY PUSH THIS LEGISLATURE OUT AND WE GOTTA, WE GOTTA HURRY AND AND GET RIGHT ON THIS. THE, THE PROBLEM IS, IS THE PIXELATION IN THE MAP IS A VERY GREAT WHICH IT'S NOT, WHICH WE CAN IDENTIFY WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE FOR US. THE OTHER ASPECT OF IT IS WE DO HAVE SOME AREAS THAT WOULD CLASSIFY AS THAT, EVEN ON THIS SIDE OF THE RAILROAD TRACKS, AND THE DOCTOR SAID IS NOT UPDATED ON THAT. NO. AND AND ANYTIME WE PUT BUILDING INTO THAT, IT'S GOING TO TAKE THE RISK OUT. HOWEVER, ONCE WE ESTABLISH THAT AREA THEN CONTRACTORS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BUILD TO THAT TO, YOU KNOW, THIS THIS HARDENED IDEA OF FIRE RESISTANT CONSTRUCTION, MORE THAN THAT, BUT IT ONLY APPLIES UNTIL THEY BUILD AND THEN IT DOESN'T APPLY. WELL, IF IF IT STAYS, IF IT STAYS IN THAT AREA, THERE IS A FEE ASSESSMENT BECAUSE THE WESTERN FRONTIER OF THE CITY USED TO BE 2200. WEST WAS THE WILD LAND. SO THAT'S THAT'S THE EXACT. CAN YOU GO BACK TO THE FIRST MAP? THAT'S THAT'S ONE OF THE POINTS I WANTED TO MAKE IN CONSIDERATION OF WHERE WE SET THE WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE BOUNDARY. IF YOU LOOK AT THEIR MAP RIGHT NOW, YOU CAN SEE THIS IS A HIGHER A LITTLE BIT HIGHER RISK AREA. WELL, THIS IS ALL UNDEVELOPED LAND. IT'S JUST FARM FIELD. OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO BE HIGHER RISK. BUT IN TEN YEARS THIS IS ALL GOING TO BE FILLED IN AND IT'S GOING TO BE THE SAME AS ANYWHERE HERE. AND THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE HIGH RISK. HOWEVER, IF WE DESIGNATE THAT AS A HIGH RISK AREA, ALL THE CONSTRUCTION THAT TAKES PLACE IN THERE IS NOW GOING TO HAVE TO MEET THE WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE CODE, WHICH COSTS MORE, ADDS MORE COST. SO SO ALONG THE LINES OF WHAT YOU SAID, COUNCIL MEMBER WHITELOCK, THE FURTHER WEST WE CAN ESTABLISH THAT BOUNDARY, PROBABLY THE BETTER, BECAUSE ONCE THE CITY IS BUILT OUT, WE'RE ONLY GOING TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF WILDLAND INTERFACE AREA. YEAH. AND EVEN THAT IT'S LOW FUELS. IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE BUILDING UP AGAINST FORESTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. WE'RE NOT GOING TO LOSE HOMES. YEAH. PROPAGATION RISKS DROP SIGNIFICANTLY. I THINK THE THING THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT IS HOW MUCH OF THAT PROPERTY HAS ALREADY BEEN REZONED AND IS ALREADY UNDER WHAT? WHAT I WOULD SAY IS WE HAVE TO LOOK AND SAY HOW MUCH OF THAT'S ALREADY UNDER A MASTER DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT, AND IT PARTICULARLY STUFF EAST OF U111. I MEAN, THAT'S JUST GOING TO BE NORMAL DEVELOPMENT, RIGHT? AS WE AS WE TREAT AS WE TREAT FROM U111 TO THE WESTERN CITY BOUNDARY, THERE WILL BE THERE WILL BE SOME. THE CLOSER WE GET TO THE THE CITY FENCE, THE THE THE RISK DOES THIS RIGHT. THE CLOSER WE GET, THE CLOSER WE GET TO THE THE FENCE. THE RISK GO UP. YEAH. AND SO I THINK WE I THINK WE HAVE TO BE SUPER CAREFUL THERE AND UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE MOUTH TO BUTTERFIELD CANYON THAT GOES THROUGH THERE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUILDING ON. NOT THAT'S OFF ONTO THE NORTH SIDE OF THE ROAD. THAT'S NOT MUCH OF A RISK. SO I THINK WE HAVE TO BUILD I THINK WE WHEN WE LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO ADOPT AS THE RISK, IT'S THE RISK THAT WOULD, FROM A FIREFIGHTING STANDPOINT, CAUSE WHAT HAPPENED IN HAWAII OR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA IF SOMETHING CAUGHT ON FIRE. I MEAN, THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT 100%. AND BY AND LARGE, THE IF YOU LOOK AT THE WHOLE STATE, THERE ARE CITIES WHERE THAT KIND OF THING COULD HAPPEN WHERE. BUT WEST JORDAN, WE'RE FORTUNATE THAT WE WE HAVE A VERY, VERY SMALL SECTION THAT EVEN IS CONSIDERED WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE COMPARED TO OTHER CITIES. AND SO REALLY, IN GENERAL, I DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING TO HAVE A HUGE IMPACT TO WEST JORDAN OR WEST JORDAN RESIDENTS. [01:00:02] YEAH. BUT WE'RE STILL REQUIRED TO DO IT. LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, THE THE QUESTION WAS BROUGHT UP IN SOME MEETINGS. I WAS IN MURRAY CITY, LIKE, HOW'S MURRAY GOING TO IDENTIFY WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE AREA. THEY DO HAVE THEY DO HAVE THEY HAVE THE RIVER BOTTOM, THE RIVER BOTTOM. BUT YEAH. AND SO I THINK, I THINK THIS I SUSPECT THAT THE THE GOAL OF THIS IS MORE TO HIT SOME OF THE RURAL URBAN AREAS AND TO HELP MITIGATE THE RISKS IN THOSE AREAS, TO THE, TO THE FIRE THREAT. FOR A CITY LIKE US, IT PROBABLY SHOWS US ANYTHING AT ALL. NOT REALLY. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE WE'RE KIND OF ON THE SAME PAGE. SO ONCE WE DO DECIDE WHAT THESE BOUNDARIES ARE WHICH THANKFULLY ISN'T GOING TO BE MUCH WHAT DEPARTMENT IS GOING TO OWN THAT SORT OF CODE COMPLIANCE. THAT'S, THAT'S THAT'S ALSO BEING DISCUSSED AND IS SOMETHING THAT WE'VE AND SOME OF THE MEETINGS WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING, AS IT STANDS RIGHT NOW, THE COUNTIES WILL BE IN CHARGE OF THAT BECAUSE WE'VE ALL SAID WE DON'T WANT NUMBER ONE. WE DON'T WANT TO SEND OUR FIREFIGHTERS OUT TO DO INSPECTIONS OF PROPERTIES, BECAUSE THAT'S PART OF IT IS THAT SOMEONE WILL COME OUT AND INSPECT THE PROPERTY AND SAY, YOU'VE GOT DEFENSIBLE SPACE. YOU'VE YOU NEED TO TRIM THESE TREES, WHATEVER. AND ALSO THERE'S ASSESSMENTS. WE DON'T WANT TO OWN THAT. AND WE'VE MADE THAT VERY CLEAR. AND WE'VE BEEN TOLD THAT THE COUNTY WILL DO THAT WITH THE STATE. BUT THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN TOLD. IS THAT PART OF THE 20% TAX WHICH WHICH, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY NEED TO DECREASE TAXES, THAT LEGISLATIVE LEVEL AND WHICH ALSO TO TO THAT POINT, IF IT DOES IN THE FUTURE, ROLL DOWN TO US A SMALLER BOUNDARY FOR US TO POLICE AND TO HAVE TO DO THAT WITH WOULD BE BETTER. I MEAN, IT'S THE MOST SENSE TO JUST PUT IT AT THE EDGE OF WHERE DEVELOPMENT CAN HAPPEN, NOT WHERE DEVELOPMENT IS. YEAH, RIGHT. YEAH. COUNCIL MEMBER WHITELOCK MENTIONED, CAN WE JUST OPT OUT? I FORGIVE ME FOR THE EXACT VERBIAGE. THEY WILL CHARGE US REGARDLESS. SO IF WE DON'T IF WE DON'T HAVE THIS DIRECTION, THEN THEY'LL CHARGE OUR HOMEOWNERS AND THEY'LL SET THE BOUNDARY AND THEN THEY'LL CHARGE THEM THE HIGHER RATE. AND THE WAY THE RATES ARE ESTABLISHED RIGHT NOW IS, IF IT'S FAIR TO SAY THEY'RE STILL UP IN THE AIR, THEY HAVEN'T COME OUT AND SAID EXACTLY WHAT IT'S GOING TO COST. WHAT WE DO KNOW IS, IS 26 YEAR, 26 AND 27, 2026, 2027. THEY'RE GOING TO BASE IT ON SQUARE FOOTAGE OF THE STRUCTURE, WHICH CAN APPEAR LIKE THEY KNOW THEY WON'T HAVE ENOUGH THINGS IN PLACE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. AND 2028 THEY WILL DO. THEY WILL BASE THE FEE OFF. A TRIAGE ASSESSMENT CHIEF MENTIONED DEFENSIBLE SPACE. WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THE CONSTRUCTION PIECES WITH IT AS WELL. SO THEY'LL DO AN ASSESSMENT TO CAPTURE SQUARE FOOTAGE. AND IF THERE'S DEFENSIBLE SPACE, DO YOU HAVE A LOT OF WE'LL CALL IT EQUIPMENT STACKED UP AGAINST YOUR HOME. IF YOU HAVE FIREWOOD AGAINST YOUR HOME, THOSE WILL ALL COUNT. ON THE CONTRARY TO THAT. SO AT THIS POINT, THERE'S AN IDEA OF COST, BUT THEY'RE NOTHING THAT I WOULD PROBABLY PUT MY NAME ON BECAUSE IT'S AN ESTIMATION. I WILL JUST SAY BEING INVOLVED WITH STATE FIRE CHIEFS, THAT THERE IS SOME PROPOSED LEGISLATIVE CHANGES TO THIS TO CLARIFY A LOT OF STUFF. AND STATE FIRE CHIEFS IS WORKING WITH THE SPADAFORE AND OTHERS TO AND REPRESENTATIVE SNYDER TO TO TO CLARIFY A LOT OF THIS A LOT OF IT RIGHT NOW HAS JUST BEEN UP TO THE INTERPRETATION OF THE STATE. THEY WANT US TO ADOPT IT WITHOUT THE CLARIFICATION. THEY JUST WANT US TO ADOPT THE WILDLAND CODE AND TO IDENTIFY AN AREA. AND THAT'S THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE'RE PUTTING BEFORE YOU RIGHT NOW. READY? BUT THOSE ARE THE DOWNSTREAM POTENTIAL EFFECTS LATER. THAT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO HELP YOU IDENTIFY. OR ARE YOU JUST GOING TO IDENTIFY AND COME BACK? I THINK WE JUST WANTED TO KIND OF GET YOUR FEEL FOR IT. WE'D BE HAPPY TO IDENTIFY SOMETHING AND BRING IT BACK FOR YOUR APPROVAL. WE JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHAT KIND OF THE FEELING WAS PART OF THIS. I LIKE WHAT COUNCIL MEMBER JACOBS SAID, WHERE IT COULD MAKE IT MAKE THAT BORDER HAPPEN AT THE EDGE OF ANY DEVELOPABLE LAND. OKAY. YEAH. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY WE WANT TO BE SAFE, BUT WE WE ALSO NEED TO BE, YOU KNOW, RESPECTFUL TO HOW THIS IS ALL GOING TO WORK, BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS, ONCE IT'S ALL BUILT OUT, IT'S NO LONGER WUI. YEAH. THEN WHY ARE WE, LIKE YOU SAID, THAT? WELL, WHY WOULD WE DESIGNATE IT THAT NOW? YEAH, CUZ YOU'RE RIGHT. THE 30% SLOPE IS NOT BUILDABLE, SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A VERY LITTLE. IT WOULD BE VERY I WOULD ENVISION A STRIP OF, I DON'T KNOW, 300FT OR 500FT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT ALONG THE WESTERN EDGE THAT CAPTURES EMBERS THAT COULD FLOW INTO NEIGHBORHOODS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT BUT STILL PROVIDES THAT BUFFER. I MEAN, THE PEOPLE THERE WOULD BE BUYING HOUSES FOR THE VIEW OF UNOBSTRUCTED ANYWAY LITERALLY STOKESLEY [01:05:09] AND OR YOU CAN. SET YOUR FIRE. WELL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I, I WOULD ASSUME YOU MAYBE COULD, BUT THERE'S JUST A LOT THAT'S KIND OF LIKE. SO WHEN I WAS OVER THERE DIMPLE THOUGH THEY HAD DONE THIS WITH DIMPLE, DALE AND ALL PEPPERWOOD AND ALL THAT AND IT IT WAS SET AND ANYTIME PLANS CAME IN FOR APPROVAL, WE HAD TO DO IT ACCORDING TO THE WILDLAND URBAN INTERFACE CODE. I IMAGINE THEY COULD GO IN AND CHANGE IT, BUT IF THEY DID THAT THERE, IT'S LIKE YOU'RE CHANGING THE RULES AS YOU GO KIND OF THING. IT JUST MAKES ME WONDER IF YOU SAID IT FAR WEST AND THEN YOU START MOVING FURTHER WEST. THEN YOU START ANNEXING MORE AND MORE LAND. RIGHT THEN. YEAH. CAN YOU READ THAT WORRIES ME THAT. YEAH. WE CAN'T PICK IT UP. WHAT'S WHAT'S ANNEXING OUT THERE? WHAT'S BUILDING? EVENTUALLY YOU GET TO THE POINT WHERE YOU CAN'T BUILD ON THE SIDE. EVEN. EVEN IF WE ASSUME THAT. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY KEEP GOING UP THERE. MAY. THERE MAY NOT BE. THERE MAY NOT BE IN THE CITY. IF WE ASSUME THAT WE CAN BUILDING PAST WHERE THE BOUNDARY OF THE CITY IS. RIGHT. BUT WHEN THAT OCCURS, THAT'S PROPERTY. THEY'LL HAVE A PRETTY LARGE POSSIBILITY OF GETTING THAT CHANGED WITH THE LEGISLATURE, AND WE'RE HAPPY TO PROVIDE ANY ADDITIONAL INFORMATION THAT YOU MIGHT WANT. SORRY. ONE OTHER ONE OTHER QUESTION ON THIS IS DOES THIS AFFECT FIREWORKS RESTRICTIONS, DO YOU THINK FIREWORKS, FIREWORK RESTRICTIONS. WE TALKED ABOUT THAT AS WELL. WILDLAND INTERFACE AREAS. AND HERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WILDLAND INTERFACE AREAS. SO HOW DOES THIS. SO THE WAY THAT THAT PLAYS OUT IF I, IF I CAN WE CAN SET THAT. THAT'S CORRECT. WELL RIGHT. WE SAY OH THERE'S NO WILDLAND INTERFACE IN OUR CITY. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER IF WE SAY IT'S THE CITY, THAT THIS IS WHERE YOU CAN'T DO FIREWORKS. YOU CAN'T DO. YEAH. SO CURRENTLY OKAY. YEAH. THAT'S IT'S BEEN AN AWESOME ADVENTURE. FIREWORKS. BUT NOT AGAINST THEM. JUST AGAINST THE MITIGATION SIDE OF IT. IT'S A LOT. BUT, LIKE, IF YOU CAPTURE RIGHT HERE. CHIEF SHOWED US THIS, THIS AREA, AND YOU CAN SEE THE, THE STREETS ACTUALLY RUNNING THROUGH THAT. SO RIGHT NOW WE HAVE U-111 AS THE BOUNDARY. NOW IF, IF ILLEGAL FIREWORKS. I KNOW THEY DON'T OFTEN HAPPEN, BUT WHEN THEY DO. RIGHT. IF, IF THEY WERE, IF THEY WERE TO LAND IN THAT FIELD, LIKE OUR FOLKS ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND THAT LIKE WE WE WOULD COMMIT TO THAT FIELD. BUT THOSE ROADS ACTUALLY PROVIDE PROTECTION AS WELL. SO AS WE TALK ABOUT FIREWORKS, THE THE WUI AREAS. YEAH, BARNEY'S WASH IS ON HERE. YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE CLAY HOLLOW WHERE THEY TOUCH, BUT AT SOME POINT THEY REALLY WON'T BE OF SIGNIFICANT RISK. THE CANALS AND THE RIVER. I MEAN, NOT THAT IT'S A THING THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF ISSUES WITH ANYWAY. RIGHT. THOUGH I THINK THAT'S FAIR TO MENTION. YEAH, BUT I MEAN, IF WE IF THE STATE SAYS YOU CAN LIMIT FIREWORKS IN WILDLAND INTERFACE AREAS AND WE SAY, OH, WE DON'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE, BUT HERE'S OUR FIREWORK RESTRICTION MAP. YEAH. DEPENDING. AND THAT'S WHERE WE LOOK AT IT. PROBABLY DIFFERENT HAND AND OUR RIGHT HAND OR NOT. I THINK THAT THE STATE PROBABLY LOOKS AT IT A LITTLE MORE GLOBALLY THAN WE DO AS, AS THE AGENCY HAVING JURISDICTION. BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. I MEAN, BASED ON WHAT THE STATE ISN'T, WHAT THE STATE SAYS YOU CAN PROHIBIT FIREWORKS IN. IT PROBABLY SHOULD BE PRETTY CLOSE TO THIS, WHICH IT CURRENTLY KIND OF IS. I MEAN, YOU WE'VE JUST THE WEST SIDE BUT AND THEN LITTLE STREET, THE FIREWORKS COMING DOWN AGAIN. OKAY. DONE AGAIN. AND SNYDER, GET IN THE ROOM AND HASH THIS OUT. WELL, THEY THEY REALLY SHOULD. THEY REALLY SHOULD. ARE THERE ANY OTHER OTHER THAN ADOPTING THE STATE CODE INTO OUR CODE, OR ARE THERE OTHER CODE CHANGES THAT YOU ANTICIPATE FOR OUR CITY WITH REGARD TO THIS FOR 2025 LEGISLATIVE SESSION? I THINK WE ARE ON ON PAR. THIS WOULD BE THE ONLY ONE THAT'S WE WILL JUST ADOPT WHAT THEY HAVE IN STATE COURT. SO THAT'S A SIMPLE LINE SAYING AND WE CAN PROVIDE THAT AS WELL. I DON'T THINK WE UNDERSTAND. YEAH OKAY. GREAT. AND AS WE ADOPT THE MAP I THINK I AGREE WITH YOU, CHIEF. IT'S THE. IT'S THE CITY. IT'S THE CITY BOUNDARY WITH THE FAR WEST. WHATEVER'S UNBUILDABLE, AND IT MAY BE A TWO. I'M GLAD TO HEAR WE'RE ON THE SAME PAGE. 2 OR 300 FOOT BAND THAT IF IF WE'RE LUCKY. YEP. IS ANYONE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THE CHIEF PUSHING IT AS FAR WEST AS HE'S COMFORTABLE DOING? [01:10:05] AND WE CAN TRUST THE CHIEF. WE CAN TRACK IT DOWN IF YOU GUYS WANT TO. OUR FINDINGS ON THAT. BUT IT LOOKS LIKE WE'LL WORK WITH ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. I THINK THE GIS SYSTEM PROVIDE A BETTER MAP THAN. OH, YOU CAN'T GET BETTER THAN THIS. OH, WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S FUNNY HOW THESE RED, IT'S IT'S YELLOW ALL THE WAY AROUND. AND THEN THERE'S THESE LITTLE RED ARMS THAT GO OUT LIKE. YEAH, RIGHT. THAT'S IT. THAT MAYBE WHOEVER CREATED IT LOVES MINECRAFT I THINK SO. AND IT LOOKS GOOD TO ME I THINK WE HAVE A GREAT TIME. WELL I'M GLAD WE'RE ON THE SAME PAGE AND WE CAN PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION AT A LATER DATE. WE'RE GOING TO WE'LL START WORKING ON IT AND BE ABLE TO SHARE IT THAT WAY. THANKS. I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR BEING THE BEARERS OF LEGISLATION. THIS IS NOT AN EASY JOB. SORRY. ALRIGHT. WHILE WE DO HAVE ANOTHER ITEM ON OUR AGENDA, WE ALSO HAVE MR. WILKIE HERE TO WE'RE GIVING ADVICE AND CONSENT. SO IT IS GOING TO BE OUR OPPORTUNITY BETWEEN THE TWO MEETINGS TO MEET WITH HIM. WHO IS MY SPONSOR? LAMB AND SHELTON. CAN YOU DO THIS IN SIX MINUTES? WELL, THAT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU TALK. MORE THAN SIX MINUTES. I WOULD RATHER GIVE YOU THE MORE TIME, I THINK. I THINK WE CAN DO IT IN FOUR AND A HALF. CAN I CAN I DO THE REST? I CAN NAME THAT, TOO. OKAY, WELL, I WILL GIVE US UNTIL A QUARTER AFTER. AND THEN WHETHER WE ARE DONE WITH THIS OR NOT, IT WILL HAVE TO END AND WE WILL CONTINUE IT TO OUR NEXT MEETING. OKAY. YEP. SO THIS IS ACTUALLY REALLY SIMPLE. [d. Discussion on Separate Utility Meters for Accessory Dwelling Units – Time permitting] I HAD A CONSTITUENT ASK ABOUT 70KM RADIUS. AND YES, HE IS IN THE ROOM AND YES, HE IS A FORMER MAYOR, BUT THAT'S NOT WHY WE'RE DOING IT. WE ARE DOING IT BECAUSE ADUS HAVE GROWN AND THEY'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO GROW. AND RIGHT NOW, IN THIS CITY, YOU CANNOT HAVE A SEPARATE UTILITY ON YOUR ADU. YOU HAVE TO HOOK IT UP TO THE CURRENT ONE THAT'S ON THE LAND. I DON'T THINK THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO JUMP ON THIS REALLY, REALLY RIGHT NOW. BUT I THINK IN THE FUTURE THEY WILL. THE MAIN REASON THAT I WAS OKAY WITH IT IS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T AFFECT THE CITY AND THE CITY BUDGET AT ALL. THIS IS JUST ON THE PERSON. I MEAN, IF YOU HAVE A WATER METER THAT AFFECTS THE CITY, IF YOU HAVE SEWER, THAT AFFECTS THE CITY AND THERE'S A LOT OF COST TO GO INTO THAT. BUT AS FAR AS IF A PERSON WANTS TO PUT AN AD IN THE BACKYARD AND ADD A SECOND UTILITY METER. I DON'T SEE A REASON WHY IT WOULD HURT ANYBODY IN THIS ROOM OR ANYBODY IN THE CITY, BECAUSE IT'S AN INDIVIDUAL CHOICE AND IT'S ON THEIR OWN DIME. SO AS FAR AS THAT GOES, THE WATER METER, WHICH WELL, WATER METER, YEAH, THAT'S GOING TO GO BACK TO THE CITY, BUT THAT'S A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION. I'M JUST SAYING, AS FAR AS THIS GOES, THE CITY IS NOT GOING TO NOT GOING TO PROVIDE OR PUT IN THE ELECTRICAL BOX. IT'S GOING TO BE ON THE PERSON THAT'S DOING THIS. AND PROVO ALLOWS IT. UTILITY. UTILITY. THAT'S WHY I'M WONDERING. OH I'M SORRY. WELL IT IT'S ELECTRIC METERS. SO PROVO ALLOWS SEPARATE METERS FOR EXTERNAL USE. SALT LAKE COUNTY, WHICH IS DIFFERENT FROM SALT LAKE CITY. THE SALT LAKE COUNTY PERMITS SEPARATE WATER AND SEWER IF THEY REMAIN UNDER THE OWNER'S NAME. RIGHT. SO WHATEVER. I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE JUST GOING TO KEEP IT ON THEIR SAME ELECTRICAL BOX. BUT THERE ARE GOING TO BE THOSE THAT ARE GOING TO WANT, YOU KNOW, HEY, I WANT TO HAVE THIS SEPARATE AND WANT TO HAVE THEM PAY FOR THEIR OWN ELECTRICITY. I WOULD ASK. YEAH. GREG. GREG ISN'T HERE. GENTLEMEN, ARE YOU PREPARED AND WILLING TO COME TO THE TABLE? SARA. YOU KNOW OUR FAMILY, SO YOU MIGHT BE COMING BACK. YOU HAVE STRONG FEELINGS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. WHY? YOU SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN. WELL WE'RE WE'RE FINE EITHER WAY, HONESTLY. BUT IT IS AN INTERESTING WAY WE IT CAN BE LOOKED AT AS AN EROSION OF OF OUR SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL ZONING. IF WE GET A LOT OF THESE, THERE COULD IT COULD IT COULD AFFECT IT. IS THAT ANY MORE THAN ALREADY I MEAN, ALREADY IF I'M ADDING ANOTHER HOME IN THE BACK OF MY HOUSE, THAT'S ALREADY CHANGING THE NATURE OF. RIGHT. YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I'M. THAT WAS ANOTHER ONE OF THESE. AND THIS IS A HOMEOWNERS EARTH I WANT. I WANT TO ALLOW HOMEOWNERS TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DO THIS FOR THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS OR WHATNOT. RIGHT. AND FOR ME, IT'S HOW THEY STRUCTURE THE THEIR RENTAL AGREEMENT WITH THEIR TENANTS. RIGHT. IT'S YOU INCLUDE UTILITIES AND SO THEY CAN ALL BE METERED ON ONE AND YOU JUST PAY ME RENT AND EVERYTHING'S INCLUDED, OR WE'RE GOING TO MEET HER SEPARATELY AND PAY YOUR OWN BILLS. LET ME JUST SAY A COUPLE THINGS REALLY QUICK. FIRST OF ALL I HAVE NO CODE FOR THIS. SO I'D BE CAREFUL NOT TO DO IT UNTIL WE ACTUALLY HAVE SOME CODE FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS. BECAUSE I DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE ANY CODE THAT WOULD REGULATE SOMETHING LIKE THIS. [01:15:05] I THINK IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR BOTH IF BEFORE YOU ADOPTED SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THERE WAS SOME SORT OF ENGINEERING STANDARD OR CODE, ESPECIALLY FOR SEPARATION OR WHERE TWO METERS WOULD GO. RIGHT NOW I HAVE A REALLY SMALL FRONT AREA AND I HAVE TO KEEP AWAY FROM FOR STATE LAW AND, YOU KNOW, FOR INTERNATIONAL PLUMBING CODE, YOU GOT TO KEEP THINGS SEPARATE, WHETHER IT BE A SEWER LATERAL OR A WATER LATERAL. THE MORE WE PUT IN THE FRONT AND WE DON'T HAVE PLACES FOR EVERYTHING TO GO THAT CAN BE A PROBLEM. SO I WOULD SAY BEFORE YOU DO THIS, LET'S MAKE SURE WE HAVE SOMETHING IN PLACE TO REGULATE THIS, TO PROTECT FUTURE HOME BUYERS, THAT EVERYTHING IS SAFE AND THAT THERE'S NOT A WATER QUALITY ISSUE. RIGHT. WELL, LET ME ASK, DO WE HAVE A LIMIT ON HOW MANY ADUS YOU CAN PUT ON EACH ONE? LET'S SEE, LET'S SEE. YEAH. SO REALLY YOU CAN PUT ONE ADU WOULD ADU IN. SO REALLY WHAT IS ONE MORE METER GOING TO HURT IF THEY USE ALREADY. AND AGAIN I'M NOT SAYING YOU CAN'T. I'M JUST SAYING I JUST THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE SOME SOMETHING TO DO, SOME SORT OF REGULATION THERE. THE SECOND THING I WOULD SAY IS THERE'S NOTHING THAT PREVENTS A HOMEOWNER TODAY FROM PUTTING IN A SECOND METER THAT'S NOT A CITY METER, RIGHT. SO LET'S SAY I JUST WANTED TO KNOW HOW MUCH THIS PERSON IS USING. YOU CAN GO DOWN TO ANY WATER SUPPLY GROUP RIGHT NOW IN SALT LAKE COUNTY. THERE'S THREE OF THEM. THEY WILL SELL YOU A METER. YOU CAN HOOK UP TO YOUR SMARTPHONE AND KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH WATER SOMEONE USES. AND THAT'S NOT AGAINST THE LAW. SO I WOULD BE CAREFUL TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU'RE REALLY TRYING TO DO. RIGHT? IF YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO MAKE THIS EASY FOR THE HOME HOMEOWNER WITHOUT PROVIDING A BURDEN TO THE CITY, BECAUSE ANY METER I HAVE TO, I HAVE TO RESPOND TO. SO I'M GOING TO HAVE PERSONNEL, AND I'M GOING TO HAVE MATERIALS AND EQUIPMENT THAT GOES FROM THE CITY LINE UP TO THE METER, AND WE'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS METER. IF IT'S JUST TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH SOMEBODY ELSE NEEDS IN THE BACK, OR FOR A SIMPLE ADU, THE EASIEST WAY TO DO IT IS JUST TO CONNECT TO YOUR CURRENT ONE AND PUT IN YOUR OWN METER RIGHT BEFORE YOU GO TO THE ADA. RIGHT? AND THAT AND IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WATER AND SEWER GOING TO BE CHEAPER, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY AN IMPACT FEE IF THEY DO THAT. THERE'S ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT IF I WAS JUST PROVIDING A SMALLER ADU, THAT'S WHAT I WOULD DO. I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO THAT. SINCE YOU HAVE THE WATER USAGE, YOU KNOW HOW TO SPLIT UP YOUR SEWER BILL 100%, RIGHT? HOW ARE YOU DOING IT? RIGHT. AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE HOMEOWNER CAN DO AND DECIDE. AND HE HAS ALL THE POWER IN THAT, RIGHT? IF AND IT WILL COST THEM LESS IN THE LONG RUN THAN ME JUST STICKING A SECOND METER OUT FRONT. GREG, YOU'VE GOT A GREAT POINT, BECAUSE IF WE DROP THE SECOND WATER METER IN, THEN THEY HAVE TO HAVE THE SECOND HOOKUP FEE AND THE SECOND BASIC SECOND SEWER. SEE WHERE BEFORE IF THEY JUST DO IT THEMSELVES, THEY JUST PAY ONE BILL. VERY SIMPLE. RIGHT. SO THE THE METERS MAY BE DIFFERENT. AND AND IF WE ARE GOING TO PERMIT METERS IT MAY BE THE A SEPARATE ELECTRIC METER OR A SEPARATE GAS METER. BUT BUT WE WOULD PROHIBIT. WATER AND SEWER. WELL I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULDN'T PROHIBIT. I JUST THINK MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK INTO THIS AND, AND PROVIDE OPTIONS AND PROVIDE LITERATURE TO SOMEONE BECAUSE THEY MAY GO DOWN A VERY EXPENSIVE ROAD NOT REALLY KNOWING WHAT THEY'RE REALLY DOING. SO I THINK THAT HAVING A LITTLE MORE STUDY ON THIS COULD HELP BOTH THE PROPERTY OWNER AND THE OKAY, CUT OFF TIME. AND I THINK THAT WAS A GREAT INTRO. YEAH. WELL, BEFORE WE CUT OFF, WHAT IS THE WHAT IS. WELL THAT'S WHAT I'M GETTING. OKAY. HOW ABOUT YOU? I THOUGHT YOU WERE JUST CUTTING ME OFF. I'M LIKE, WHOA. WHAT I'M HEARING IS THAT MAYBE WE WANT A LITTLE MORE INFORMATION. AND I'M HEARING THAT STAFF WOULD LIKE TO BRING BACK MORE INFORMATION FOR US. DO I HAVE FOUR OF YOU THAT ARE OKAY WITH CONTINUING THIS ON ANOTHER NIGHT AND HAVE STAFF BRING BACK INFORMATION? I HAVE COUNCIL MEMBER BLOOM. YES, I HAVE EVERYONE. I THINK WE'RE NOT AGAINST IT. WELL, I MEAN, ESPECIALLY LOOKING AT WHAT OTHER CITIES ARE DOING AND HOW. YEAH, THAT WOULD BE REALLY. THANK YOU. WITH THAT, I'M GOING TO CALL OUR COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE. ADJOURNED. REMIND YOU THAT MR. WILKIE. HELLO. IS HERE TO MEET US. SO IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE WERE IN HERE. * This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.